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Old 08-20-2014, 11:09 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Your post would have been much better had you just omitted this sentence.
Apologies and to IH.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:10 AM   #92
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Are you referring to the end of American slavery? It's been about 150 years since the end of the Civil War.

speaking of the Civil War - I'm so proud of my great-great grandfather who fought for the Union in a Kentucky (border state) Infantry Regiment.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting 150 years is enough time to undo the injustice of slavery. I just wanted to clarify that American slavery ended about 150 years ago.

I am broadly including up until the civil rights era, just because slavery ended at that point with the civil war (plus not all of it ended with it), real progress wasn't made until much more recently.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:12 AM   #93
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Are you referring to the end of American slavery? It's been about 150 years since the end of the Civil War.
Probably referring to civil rights movements of the 60s.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:17 AM   #94
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I am broadly including up until the civil rights era, just because slavery ended at that point with the civil war (plus not all of it ended with it), real progress wasn't made until much more recently.
Thanks for clarifying.

Also - are you referring to regional race issues - or the entire country? I think we're all aware of the problems in the South until the Civil Rights Era, but I'm not really aware of systemic oppression in other parts of the country.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:59 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
You do have Geert Wilders though.
Fair enough. But most of us also think he's an idiot, so there's that.




I think I actually understand the point IH is trying to make, and I kind of agree with it. Sure, racism is still there, but aren't we partially keeping it up by still putting so much emphasis on it? It was hundreds of years ago, maybe the reason why it impacts Europe less is that it's not actually covered in the media here as much with the emphasis on race.

When there's a news story and someone is shot by someone, the race of those person aren't headlines. Sure, they're mentioned in the articles.. but when I see stuff like has been pointed out here that when it's about black people there's negative associations everywhere, stuff like that, I don't think our press is quite like that.

I''m not really sure how to explain myself very well here. Maybe an example, some people here still think that the Dutch should officially apologize and pay the ancestors of the people we've hurt over the WW and at the Indonesian colonies. First things first, what happened over there was horrible and should never, ever happen again. But then that immediately raises a question in my head. Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?
I hope I'm not rubbing people the wrong way by making these comparisons, but I do think that part of the problem is that some people victimize themselves far too much.

Just to make clear, I'm absolutely not stating racism isn't a big issue in the US or anything like that. I just think there are two sides of the problem and both need to be adressed and fixed before things can change properly.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:07 PM   #96
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Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?
I am by no means an expert on this but it is my impression that reparations are generally supported by a small number of fringe factions and not really seen as a viable solution. What may be more viable is some sort of financial assistance, nation-to-nation. The thought there is that countries which have a colonial history of oppression and profit are partly where they are due to that profit, and consequently should repatriate some of it or maybe provide favourable loans or trade agreements to these nations, etc. These are complex issues and I haven't really had the time or inclination to think them through completely, just wanted to point out that generally most serious and educated people aren't talking about YOU compensating some individual across the world, but some indirect ways in which reparations could take place.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:15 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I think we're all aware of the problems in the South until the Civil Rights Era, but I'm not really aware of systemic oppression in other parts of the country.
The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

Beware, it's a really long article, but an excellent read and really made me think about my own perceptions and opinions.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

Beware, it's a really long article, but an excellent read and really made me think about my own perceptions and opinions.
I will try to set aside the alarms the immediately go off when I read the title...I will do my best to remain objective. If it's that long of an article, I may not get to it until later.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:12 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Galeongirl View Post
But then that immediately raises a question in my head. Why should WE pay for something our ancestors have done? I mean, we acknowledge that part of history and that they were bad.. but isn't this something like saying the great grandchildren of the nazis should still pay for the mistakes of their ancestors?

Because the mistakes of our ancestors are still having a lasting effect on the descendants of those discriminated against. Someone posted the "Case for Reperations" which is an excellent article and points out all the ways that blacks have been discriminated against throughout the US's history. It wasn't just slavery and Jim Crow in the South. It was redlining in the North which meant that blacks missed out on the largest accumulation of wealth in post-WW2 America. The War on Drugs and the mass incarceration of young black males is another example. Discrimination still occurs due to the mistakes of our ancestors.


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Old 08-20-2014, 01:37 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I will try to set aside the alarms the immediately go off when I read the title...I will do my best to remain objective. If it's that long of an article, I may not get to it until later.
Please do. It really is worth the time.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:51 PM   #101
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I am by no means an expert on this but it is my impression that reparations are generally supported by a small number of fringe factions and not really seen as a viable solution. What may be more viable is some sort of financial assistance, nation-to-nation. The thought there is that countries which have a colonial history of oppression and profit are partly where they are due to that profit, and consequently should repatriate some of it or maybe provide favourable loans or trade agreements to these nations, etc. These are complex issues and I haven't really had the time or inclination to think them through completely, just wanted to point out that generally most serious and educated people aren't talking about YOU compensating some individual across the world, but some indirect ways in which reparations could take place.
I understand that, the whole economical aspect makes sense. But why do they want our government to apologize to their people, when this government has done nothing to them? That's what I don't get. What difference does it make, the people who did wrong still did wrong, we can't change that. We've already expressed our disagreement and everything, wouldn't an apology from someone who had nothing to do with it be insincere?


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Because the mistakes of our ancestors are still having a lasting effect on the descendants of those discriminated against. Someone posted the "Case for Reperations" which is an excellent article and points out all the ways that blacks have been discriminated against throughout the US's history. It wasn't just slavery and Jim Crow in the South. It was redlining in the North which meant that blacks missed out on the largest accumulation of wealth in post-WW2 America. The War on Drugs and the mass incarceration of young black males is another example. Discrimination still occurs due to the mistakes of our ancestors.


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Yes, they have a lasting effect... but that still doesn't explain what our involvement is. It's something our ancestors did that they still feel, not something our generation did. Instead of them blaming us, shouldn't we be working together to fix things, rather than stay focussed on the past?
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:35 PM   #102
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You could say we are responsible for the maintenance of a status quo that does still lasting harm to that group of people. We may have gotten rid of the laws and all the overt stuff from discrimination, but when we don't do anything to improve the position they have been left in, we are complicit by are lack of action. The world is skewed to be beneficial to white western people, we don't like rocking that boat.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:06 PM   #103
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The world is skewed to be beneficial to white western people, we don't like rocking that boat.
I would agree that is true in the mostly white Western Civilization (which wouldn't be too difficult to expect to some degree). However, there's quite a few people living in the East that impact the globe as well. Once could argue that the Chinese use "slavery-lite" today to gain wage advantage.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:32 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post
You could say we are responsible for the maintenance of a status quo that does still lasting harm to that group of people. We may have gotten rid of the laws and all the overt stuff from discrimination, but when we don't do anything to improve the position they have been left in, we are complicit by are lack of action. The world is skewed to be beneficial to white western people, we don't like rocking that boat.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Many of us are working to end policies such as the War on the Drugs and other forms of structural racism, but many others think that because there is no more overt discrimination, racism is over. It's not and we need to work to improve the lives of groups that have been affected by racial discrimination, both in the past and present. Reparations are part of that.


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Old 08-20-2014, 06:52 PM   #105
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Did your students understand the point you were trying to make?

Actually,
what is the point that you're trying to make?

These were 7th graders. At first they did not and were puzzled, all of them.
They all thought that only blacks had been subjected to slavery. They also thought that it had only occurred in the U.S.


Once into the discussion they were shocked to realize it was still being practiced in some parts of the world.

After the talking, I turned them loose on the computers to search and learn more.

The point I was trying to get across is that we are all human and we all have much in common.
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