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Old 08-31-2016, 02:46 AM   #646
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I just wish Colin wasn't so stupid with his words after the fact.

And since I do support him, I kinda wish it was an athlete I enjoy watching as an athlete... because this is probably my favorite thing I've ever seen him do.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:47 AM   #647
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Racism: glorified hyperbole in America

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Just because she wasn't alone doesn't make it excusable. And while putting something in its relative time is important, that doesn't mean there wasn't people who were actively disagreeing with that rhetoric at the time as well.


No one is saying its excusable, but it is/was understandable in the context of the time.

It's easy to remain pure when you can take positions because you never have to suffer from political consequences (like, say, if you are from a tiny, white state). But the Clintons struggled mightily in the 1990s to realign and "triangulate" after the party suffered shattering defeats in the 1980s and 1994 midterms. We can wish that they had been more liberal, but it may not have been politically possible at the time -- and the appearance of being tough on crime may make other battles possible, and other pieces of legislation possible. They remained in power, and made more leftward incremental change possible.
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:20 AM   #648
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That book was really great.
Have you read his short-story collection, Brief Encounters with Che Guevara? It's wonderful.
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Old 08-31-2016, 05:27 PM   #649
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Old 08-31-2016, 05:36 PM   #650
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I would support bukini shaming rather than a ban. A ban is prejudicial and takes away freedom of expression.

Likewise, shaming those wearing burkinis for the hypocrisy that it entails with women attempting to be modern while bowing to backwards social customs would be a good thing only if France were anti-religious on the whole and willing to go after other cults such as Christianity with the same fervor.
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Old 08-31-2016, 06:06 PM   #651
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When I first read about this French story, thought it was a joke. Civilized government shouldn't have any say in beachwear.

(nude beaches excluded?)
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Old 08-31-2016, 06:07 PM   #652
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I would support bukini shaming rather than a ban.
How enlightened of you.

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Likewise, shaming those wearing burkinis for the hypocrisy that it entails with women attempting to be modern while bowing to backwards social customs
Speaking for women once again. Thank God you're here to explain the only reason they would wear a burkini.
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Old 08-31-2016, 06:16 PM   #653
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How enlightened of you.







Speaking for women once again. Thank God you're here to explain the only reason they would wear a burkini.

I don't think he articulates his thought very well (or perhaps it's just provocative). But, I think it's somewhat of a fair point -- though it's not so much about women as it is about how institutional Islam does train women to be ultra conservative in the way they dress.

You can call it culture or religion, but that doesn't mean that it's in any way liberating. I think the right to choose your religion is important. The most important part of this discussion. But it's a catch 22 for liberalism and traditional Islamic clothing.

That being said, shaming someone is sort of useless. And childish. And rude. I think it's mostly up to Muslim women to push their own boundaries. If you want to shame someone, shame the people that shame the Muslim women for bending their rules. That's the best settling point I can think of from a socially liberal perspective.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:01 PM   #654
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That being said, shaming someone is sort of useless. And childish. And rude.
Exactly. The idea that Western men shaming Muslim women accomplishes anything beyond externalizing a smug feeling of superiority is ridiculous. It certainly doesn't help the women.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:04 PM   #655
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No talking about France in this thread. It's "Glorified Hyperbole in America"


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:20 PM   #656
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it's not so much about women as it is about how institutional Islam does train women to be ultra conservative in the way they dress.
right, because at the same time we're also concerned about how the Amish and Hasidic Jews also train their women to be ultra conservative in the way they dress.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:22 PM   #657
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Exactly. The idea that Western men shaming Muslim women accomplishes anything beyond externalizing a smug feeling of superiority is ridiculous. It certainly doesn't help the women.

It's almost as though people should be able to determine for themselves what they should or should not wear.
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:07 PM   #658
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It's okay, you guys - you can be against religion telling women what to wear AND the government telling women what to wear.

Mind-blowing, I know.
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:28 PM   #659
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right, because at the same time we're also concerned about how the Amish and Hasidic Jews also train their women to be ultra conservative in the way they dress.

Who is "we?"

Like I said, freedom of an adult's choice is the most important thing. Speaking of Amish, don't they like, allow their people a year in the city life and give them the choice to stay or go?

Anyways, besides the point. Totally besides the point. To whatever extent any religion or culture suggests that a woman (or a man, at that) needs to cover themselves I disagree with. In the particular case of Islam, it is very much so a man-on-woman act. Nobody look at my wife because she's for my private eyes only. It's somewhat possessive. I think ultimately that's for an adult Muslim woman to decide how she feels about that though. I respectfully disagree with the idea of it, as I do with most religious topics.
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:37 PM   #660
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Racism: glorified hyperbole in America

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It's okay, you guys - you can be against religion telling women what to wear AND the government telling women what to wear.

Mind-blowing, I know.


But then who will to tell women what they can and cannot wear?
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