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Old 07-19-2016, 08:53 PM   #496
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Because "black on black" crime is perpetually used as a deflection when racism is pointed out. "Why are they so worried about cops or racists when they're getting killed by 'their own'?"

I definitely agree that right wing media does want to portray it as getting killed by "their own." But that makes me hate the racist right wing. I'm indifferent about the term.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:12 PM   #497
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There's really no point to the term beyond deflection. It's used to imply that dysfunction in black community is solely due to race and not poverty or structural racism.

In aggregate, most murder is white-on-white.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:21 PM   #498
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But it is a societal thing beyond socio-economic status...poor people (and black people) aren't going around shooting each other in other first world countries like they are in the United States which is obviously a gun nuts paradise. You'd be crazy and outright wrong to think there isn't a cultural trend among disadvantaged blacks in this country to want to carry a weapon and inflict harm.

I don't really buy the argument of poor = more murders, rapes, etc. It can certainly be one of a set of factors more likely to lead to those circumstances, but there's plenty of evidence of poor communities all over the world not suddenly having high crime rates for things that don't directly involve poverty (such as theft).
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:30 PM   #499
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There's really no point to the term beyond deflection. It's used to imply that dysfunction in black community is solely due to race and not poverty or structural racism.

In aggregate, most murder is white-on-white.

That's just not true. It's like you're claiming there's no point to demographics when it comes to something negative. A demographic statistic that draws a relationship is valuable in every single instance, and important to help draw hypotheses about society.
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:26 PM   #500
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That's just not true. It's like you're claiming there's no point to demographics when it comes to something negative. A demographic statistic that draws a relationship is valuable in every single instance, and important to help draw hypotheses about society.


It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.

I think there's value in demographics, positive or negative, but this particular term cannot be divorced from politics, nor is it applied evenly across all groups. Do we ever talk about white-on-white crime?
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:37 PM   #501
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It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.

I think there's value in demographics, positive or negative, but this particular term cannot be divorced from politics, nor is it applied evenly across all groups. Do we ever talk about white-on-white crime?

So talk about it! Meet someone who tries to use shady numbers with cold hard facts. Why are you telling me? I'm not using black-on-black crime as a defense for my racism. By all means, if the right talks about black-on-black crime, it's your/our job to talk back and say "look, these are the white-on-white facts, these are the black-on-white facts, and these are the white-on-black facts. And these are what they might mean and what supports that hypothesis. And this is why you're either racist or misinformed for saying that."
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:54 PM   #502
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I think the main issue is that using race as the demographic metric is superficial, as the underlying correlation is more accurately with poverty and other socio-economic factors.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:32 PM   #503
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It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.

Didn't know it was that high. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested to see those numbers.



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Old 07-19-2016, 11:40 PM   #504
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I think the main issue is that using race as the demographic metric is superficial, as the underlying correlation is more accurately with poverty and other socio-economic factors.

A statistic is a statistic. It's not superficial. It's a correlation. I think the term you're looking for is underlying causation, not correlation. They're parallel correlations, but one is more likely to be the causing factor.

And I've yet to disagree with that. But this doesn't make saying "black-on-black" inherently racist. It just makes a person who tries to justify violence in the black community as a function of their being black as racist.

This reminds me of the time I got called sexist for saying that women should be allowed to play in the MLB, though biologically it would still be a league almost entirely dominated by males.

It's like I have to avoid descriptive facts and supportive evidence in the name of not hurting someone else's feelings. What's fucked up is I'm not even allowed to call someone out for being too "politically correct," because then I'll be automatically assumed and labeled as a right wing Trump supporter. They don't own/define the term "politically correct," and nor do racists own the term "black-on-black."
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:50 PM   #505
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Didn't know it was that high. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested to see those numbers.



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I'm glad you posted -- I read/typed too quickly and was inaccurate. Whites are responsible for 84% of white murders. Essentially, people kill within their own ethnic group.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:51 PM   #506
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I don't remember anyone saying the term "black on black" is racist. Just that it's not terribly useful in getting at the underlying problems.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:53 PM   #507
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I don't remember anyone saying the term "black on black" is racist. Just that it's not terribly useful in getting at the underlying problems.




I've said that the term is used by racists. It's use seems problematic at best, and it's usefulness seems to go about as far as to determine the fact that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:56 PM   #508
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Is there even a legal definition of black and white? I honestly don't know. It seems to me those things are primarily social constructs, and in that sense a statistic about a social construct is pretty useless unless it is based on self-identification.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:27 AM   #509
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I've said that the term is used by racists. It's use seems problematic at best, and it's usefulness seems to go about as far as to determine the fact that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups.

It's usefulness does indeed show that the rate of violence is higher in African American demographics. That IS important. It's important because it shouldn't be happening. I'm a perfect world, we wouldn't have crime. In a great world, crime would be color blind and equal regardless of race. But crime data is tracked by the FBI and probably other agencies within the federal government for a reason. We don't live in a great world in this context.

I would go so far as to say your assertion is wrong that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups. Well, depending on what you meant by it. I think that data suggests that people purely interact or live around their own ethnic groups.

But the correlation is important. We know it's not likely to be purely coincidence. Much like a college admission board, you want your admissions to match the demographics of both your state and your nation. It's just super important to establish the fact that just because two variables are correlated, does not mean one causes the other. There's no reason to suggest that being black simply makes you more likely to be violent. However, as we've all discussed, there is reason to suggest that poverty could/does influence crime. Both logically and quantitatively that can be supported. So, one rational conclusion to fight poverty in low income areas. What a surprise, those are disproportionately black!

You might think it's as simple as shrugging it off, but having numerous variables in play and observing several correlations at once are what allow us to have quantitative evidence for our claims. You could either tell someone "you're a racist for using the black on black argument" and develop a qualitative assessment of someone's choice of words, or you can quantitatively show them they're wrong with numbers. I think the latter proves a point.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:30 AM   #510
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Is there even a legal definition of black and white? I honestly don't know. It seems to me those things are primarily social constructs, and in that sense a statistic about a social construct is pretty useless unless it is based on self-identification.

Legally, on the census, you do identify yourself. Again, one might say "that's racist, we shouldn't do that." But on the contrary, demographics help us understand where we should be focusing on fixing. Example: the disproportionate amount of poor communities by income that are largely black.

Or, the fact that we have communities that lack diversity.
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