BVS
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What do you and every other media outlet in this country call it when a white man shoots another white man?
Racism: glorified hyperbole in America
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What do you and every other media outlet in this country call it when a white man shoots another white man?
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Crime?
Oregoropa
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Thanks for answering my question. Seems like you would want to view this in a colorblind spectrum.
Is 'violence' how you would describe cop shootings of suspects across the board?
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Is 'violence' how you would describe cop shootings of suspects across the board?
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bobsaget77
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Is black people shooting black people somehow better or worse or more problematic than white people shooting white people?
I would be more inclined to look at the socioeconomics of violence rather than race. When you frame these discussions as "black-on-black" there's a tendency to overlook the poverty angle as well as to exacerbate the tendency to think "well that's just how those people are" as well as tell white people that it's really not their problem.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Yes, getting shot is violent.
Do you not see upholders of the law shooting unarmed citizens being an issue?
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LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Ugh, I hate to have to do this...
Guys, while I neither condone nor condemn the term "black-on-black," statistics are a thing. Demographics are a thing. It's not inherently racist if you mention someone's race. Ignoring demographics is not productive.
That doesn't mean that the usage of the demographic statistic is relevant, significant, or valid. But you can't just hate the term for the sake of not wanting to sound racist. It's not racist unless you make it racist.
Guys, while I neither condone nor condemn the term "black-on-black," statistics are a thing. Demographics are a thing. It's not inherently racist if you mention someone's race. Ignoring demographics is not productive.
That doesn't mean that the usage of the demographic statistic is relevant, significant, or valid. But you can't just hate the term for the sake of not wanting to sound racist. It's not racist unless you make it racist.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
And to add to my post, correlation =\= causation. Were there to be a statistical significance of black on black crime, that doesn't mean it's because they're black. Of course socioeconomic reasons exist.
BVS
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LuckyNumber7
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Then what's the point? What's wrong with saying "black on black"? Does it sound like too much of a porno or something?
Being colorblind is an excellent goal for humanity, but in order to solve humanity's issues of race you can't just never mention how these races interact.
Let's go right off the bat... whites are more likely to commit white collar crime. Why, because that's their style? No, because they're more likely to have gone through college because they don't grow up shit poor. That doesn't change the fact that the statistic exists. That doesn't mean we should turn a (color)blind eye to it.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Tell me the next time you turn on the news and you hear; white on white crime, gay on gay, straight on straight, Hispanic on Hispanic crime. You won't hear it, it's a diversion term used by racists in order to sweep uncomfortable subjects under the rug.
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PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Because "black on black" crime is perpetually used as a deflection when racism is pointed out. "Why are they so worried about cops or racists when they're getting killed by 'their own'?"
To me also, the term "black on black" crime implies that black people are making active choices to commit violent acts against other black people. When in reality it has to do with socioeconomics - crime is most often an act of opportunity and if you're committing crimes in poor ghettos, well who do you think will comprise most of the victims?
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Okay, and I didn't disagree. But to say "just say violence instead" isn't right. It isn't productive.
Call people out for being racist and using it as a diversion. But if someone uses the term and figures a legitimate argument, you can't just say "you shouldn't say that, just use the general term instead." You'd be demanding lossy or generalized information that's otherwise useless.
100% of people who commit violence on other people are people. Let's work towards a solution?
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
I definitely agree that right wing media does want to portray it as getting killed by "their own." But that makes me hate the racist right wing. I'm indifferent about the term.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
There's really no point to the term beyond deflection. It's used to imply that dysfunction in black community is solely due to race and not poverty or structural racism.
In aggregate, most murder is white-on-white.
In aggregate, most murder is white-on-white.
BigMacPhisto
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
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But it is a societal thing beyond socio-economic status...poor people (and black people) aren't going around shooting each other in other first world countries like they are in the United States which is obviously a gun nuts paradise. You'd be crazy and outright wrong to think there isn't a cultural trend among disadvantaged blacks in this country to want to carry a weapon and inflict harm.
I don't really buy the argument of poor = more murders, rapes, etc. It can certainly be one of a set of factors more likely to lead to those circumstances, but there's plenty of evidence of poor communities all over the world not suddenly having high crime rates for things that don't directly involve poverty (such as theft).
I don't really buy the argument of poor = more murders, rapes, etc. It can certainly be one of a set of factors more likely to lead to those circumstances, but there's plenty of evidence of poor communities all over the world not suddenly having high crime rates for things that don't directly involve poverty (such as theft).
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
That's just not true. It's like you're claiming there's no point to demographics when it comes to something negative. A demographic statistic that draws a relationship is valuable in every single instance, and important to help draw hypotheses about society.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
It is true that more than 80% of murders are by white people on white people.
I think there's value in demographics, positive or negative, but this particular term cannot be divorced from politics, nor is it applied evenly across all groups. Do we ever talk about white-on-white crime?
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
So talk about it! Meet someone who tries to use shady numbers with cold hard facts. Why are you telling me? I'm not using black-on-black crime as a defense for my racism. By all means, if the right talks about black-on-black crime, it's your/our job to talk back and say "look, these are the white-on-white facts, these are the black-on-white facts, and these are the white-on-black facts. And these are what they might mean and what supports that hypothesis. And this is why you're either racist or misinformed for saying that."
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
I think the main issue is that using race as the demographic metric is superficial, as the underlying correlation is more accurately with poverty and other socio-economic factors.
bobsaget77
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Didn't know it was that high. Can you link a source for that? I'd be interested to see those numbers.
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LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
A statistic is a statistic. It's not superficial. It's a correlation. I think the term you're looking for is underlying causation, not correlation. They're parallel correlations, but one is more likely to be the causing factor.
And I've yet to disagree with that. But this doesn't make saying "black-on-black" inherently racist. It just makes a person who tries to justify violence in the black community as a function of their being black as racist.
This reminds me of the time I got called sexist for saying that women should be allowed to play in the MLB, though biologically it would still be a league almost entirely dominated by males.
It's like I have to avoid descriptive facts and supportive evidence in the name of not hurting someone else's feelings. What's fucked up is I'm not even allowed to call someone out for being too "politically correct," because then I'll be automatically assumed and labeled as a right wing Trump supporter. They don't own/define the term "politically correct," and nor do racists own the term "black-on-black."
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I'm glad you posted -- I read/typed too quickly and was inaccurate. Whites are responsible for 84% of white murders. Essentially, people kill within their own ethnic group.
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
I don't remember anyone saying the term "black on black" is racist. Just that it's not terribly useful in getting at the underlying problems.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I've said that the term is used by racists. It's use seems problematic at best, and it's usefulness seems to go about as far as to determine the fact that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups.
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
Is there even a legal definition of black and white? I honestly don't know. It seems to me those things are primarily social constructs, and in that sense a statistic about a social construct is pretty useless unless it is based on self-identification.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
It's usefulness does indeed show that the rate of violence is higher in African American demographics. That IS important. It's important because it shouldn't be happening. I'm a perfect world, we wouldn't have crime. In a great world, crime would be color blind and equal regardless of race. But crime data is tracked by the FBI and probably other agencies within the federal government for a reason. We don't live in a great world in this context.
I would go so far as to say your assertion is wrong that people tend to kill within their own ethnic groups. Well, depending on what you meant by it. I think that data suggests that people purely interact or live around their own ethnic groups.
But the correlation is important. We know it's not likely to be purely coincidence. Much like a college admission board, you want your admissions to match the demographics of both your state and your nation. It's just super important to establish the fact that just because two variables are correlated, does not mean one causes the other. There's no reason to suggest that being black simply makes you more likely to be violent. However, as we've all discussed, there is reason to suggest that poverty could/does influence crime. Both logically and quantitatively that can be supported. So, one rational conclusion to fight poverty in low income areas. What a surprise, those are disproportionately black!
You might think it's as simple as shrugging it off, but having numerous variables in play and observing several correlations at once are what allow us to have quantitative evidence for our claims. You could either tell someone "you're a racist for using the black on black argument" and develop a qualitative assessment of someone's choice of words, or you can quantitatively show them they're wrong with numbers. I think the latter proves a point.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Legally, on the census, you do identify yourself. Again, one might say "that's racist, we shouldn't do that." But on the contrary, demographics help us understand where we should be focusing on fixing. Example: the disproportionate amount of poor communities by income that are largely black.
Or, the fact that we have communities that lack diversity.
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