Racism

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BVS

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So a lot of threads in here and a lot of issues out in the real world are being side tracked or derailed by a single word:

racism

but there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what the word means. So without saying who is or who isn't racist, why don't we simply define the term? Maybe even give a general example, no names or specifics.

So what does the word mean?
 
it's a terrible thing that black people and all minorities accuse white people of when black people and all minorities and their guilty white liberal enablers don't get their way.

the accusation of it is far, far worse than the actual thing itself, but the worst thing of all is reverse racism.
 
it's a terrible thing that black people and all minorities accuse white people of when black people and all minorities and their guilty white liberal enablers don't get their way.

the accusation of it is far, far worse than the actual thing itself, but the worst thing of all is reverse racism.

*sigh* That didn't take long. That's your contribution?

Anyway...

I remember a lecture from my sociology professor- a self-professed liberal, for what it's worth- from freshman year. He gave us this hypothetical scenario on race, and I found it quite interesting. He said something roughly like this:

"Let's say I show you a group of 5 African-American males on one side of the room. Then I show you a group of 5 Caucasian males on the other side of the room. Then I tell you that one of these 10 people has been convicted of homicide, and I'll give you five bucks if you correctly guess which group he is in. Which group do you guess?"

I would, likely with little hesitation, pick the group of African-Americans. Now, is that being racist, or is that making a racial observation and estimate based on statistics? I'd pick them not because I believe most African-Americans are criminals or because I hate black people, but because the statistics tell me to pick them. And I bet there would be people who still call me racist for picking the group of African-American males, and if so I'd certainly like to know why.

Another hypothetical. Let's say it's a year ago. You're driving down the street and the car in front of you has a McCain/Palin sticker on it. You change lanes and pull up beside it, and prepare to glance over at the driver. Now, what race do you expect to see when you look in the driver's seat? If you think "Hmm, there's probably an equal chance that I'll see a white person or a black person in the car," then bravo, good for you. But tell me that you wouldn't be 99.9% sure that there would be a white person in the car. Now, I could say that you would be racist for assuming that. But I wouldn't, because that's not being racist, but rather making a racial observation and estimate based on statistics.

I was walking on the quad last year wearing my McCain shirt and an African-American stopped me and starting questioning me. His first question? "Why don't you like Obama?" His second question? Something like "Is it because he's black?" or "Are you a racist?" Are we really at that point in America in 2009? I sure hope not.

Also, one morning last winter I stepped outside of my apartment building to head to my car. I noticed that overnight half of my McCain/Palin bumper sticker had been ripped off and faintly written in dust on the back of my car was "racist." Again, is this the world we live in?

I don't know if I answered the original question, and I don't really care. Point is, I don't care who you are, we need to stop throwing "racist!" around so damn easily. 95% of the people who use it probably use it incorrectly, and that is unbelievably aggravating.
 
Having been a member of this forum for several years I can say that five of the above five posters have had racist thoughts and even made racist statements.



There are defintions of racism that would be easy enough to cut and paste.

But, why bother?


I don't believe having a racist thought makes one a racist.

Does having a communist thought make one a communist?


Every now and then I have a religious thought and may even make a religious statement.
 
I was walking on the quad last year wearing my McCain shirt and an African-American stopped me and starting questioning me. His first question? "Why don't you like Obama?" His second question? Something like "Is it because he's black?" or "Are you a racist?" Are we really at that point in America in 2009? I sure hope not.

Also, one morning last winter I stepped outside of my apartment building to head to my car. I noticed that overnight half of my McCain/Palin bumper sticker had been ripped off and faintly written in dust on the back of my car was "racist." Again, is this the world we live in?

To be honest, with making a big thing of anecdotes like this, you just come across as prissy. Unless one of these guys physically threatened you or vandalised your car, frankly, big deal.

I think a vibrant political culture of discussion and cut-and-thrust debate - as America has, much as I criticise its foreign policy - is a good thing.
 
i broke down the world in a way that it is not commonly associated in a previous thread, but i think i only got 1 response saying "i disagree", so im not going to type all that again :lol:
 
To be honest, with making a big thing of anecdotes like this, you just come across as prissy. Unless one of these guys physically threatened you or vandalised your car, frankly, big deal.

I think a vibrant political culture of discussion and cut-and-thrust debate - as America has, much as I criticise its foreign policy - is a good thing.

Whatever. Those two anecdotes of mine you cited- that's "debate?" That's "discussion?" Far from it.

And considering ripping off my bumper sticker is both theft and vandalism, then yes, I don't mind making a big deal of it...
 
I do think racism CAN be overblown in certain situations. I do, howevr understand that those who belong to minority groups can feel outcast and overpowered based on certain past occurances and situations can cause history to repeat.

A lot of confusion comes because most don't understand the distinction between a stereotype, racism and a valid trait. Stereotyping isn't racism, however it does lead to it. Some, if not most stereotypes are based on valid traits, and pointing out physical characteristics that are true is not a racist action, although it can be an insensitive one.

I think Stereotyping relates to peoples opinions and their preconceptions.

Racism is general the physical manifestation of harmful stereotyping. IE stereotyping becomes racism when it causes a negative physical, social or any other form or repercussion to the subject.

I think, however, a lot of white people these days whinge about reverse racism or being quickly quietened by black, hispanic, latin, asian people because the people who belong to those groups expect the white person to act in a racist way. In the end I think this is fair enough because if whitey thinks being expected to have an opinion is bad, they dont quite understand what the real adverse effects of racism are. Either way, those situations are quickly diffused if you in fact aren't a person with racist inclinations.
 
How does it compare to, say, slavery or apartheid or colonialism?

or more recently police brutality, and the subtler forms of racism, economic spearation, social disclusion, lowered expectations etc

I lost a bumper sticker the other day. Fucking sun and rain combined to peel the fucked right off. I feel the right to whinge about the weather DAMN YOU SUN!!!!!
 
I don't know if I answered the original question, and I don't really care. Point is, I don't care who you are, we need to stop throwing "racist!" around so damn easily. 95% of the people who use it probably use it incorrectly, and that is unbelievably aggravating.


I think your anecdotes miss the point and also I don't understand ^^^ this type of anger. Are you more aggravated by those that use the word than the fact that it still exist today, and very prevalent?

I do think one misconception about the definition of racism showed up in your post though, racism does not always equal hate, and I do think that's one misconception or reason that some do not recognise racism.
 
How does it compare to, say, slavery or apartheid or colonialism?


What?! What the heck are you talking about?

But I'll play along. No, financeguy, having my bumper sticker ripped off and "racist" written on my car is not- repeat, NOT- as bad as being an African-American slave. Good job. :up:
 
ok i broke down and found that post:

well if you look at the word racism, it kind of is.

race - a classification of humans baised on certain physical traits
ism - a distinctive doctrine, system, or theory

anytime you bring up race in an issue, it is racism. even if it is harmless discussion. it's not wearing a white hood and calling people names, but if you look at the word, it is still racism, just not racism in the negative way that we usually associate the word.

same with the word racist. we love to call people that in a negative way all the time. but if you look at the language and break down the word, racist means anyone who uses race in an issue, not just in a negative way. you say "Obama is our 1st black president." totally harmless statement, but you are using race in that statement. therefore, technically speaking you are being a racist.

You are ALL racists! :lol:

i guess my point was racism is anytime race is used in a discussion, action etc, harmless or in a negative way.
 
ok i broke down and found that post:

while that may be a strict interpretation, you dont leave room for the fact the language is an organism, and is malleable; words take on new or altered meanings over time. Racism, as a functional part of the modern language is exclusively applied to the negative aspects of stereotyping physical characteristics, usually causing significant social, economic and physical disadvantage to a group of people based solely on these characteristics
 
I think your anecdotes miss the point and also I don't understand ^^^ this type of anger. Are you more aggravated by those that use the word than the fact that it still exist today, and very prevalent?

I don't like that the almost careless use of the word makes it harder for people to identify REAL racism. Too many people are quicker to call Keith Olbermann a racist than they are the KKK, and quicker to call Glenn Beck a racist than they are the New Black Panther Party. I have no problem with the word "racist" itself, but please, use it to classify someone who fits the term.
 
I don't like that the almost careless use of the word makes it harder for people to identify REAL racism. Too many people are quicker to call Keith Olbermann a racist than they are the KKK, and quicker to call Glenn Beck a racist than they are the New Black Panther Party. I have no problem with the word "racist" itself, but please, use it to classify someone who fits the term.

But everyone knows the extremist groups are racist, that's just a given. So these aren't fair comparisons. Do I believe it gets overused? Absolutely, but not NEARLY as much as you would like to think.
 
Less important than racism itself, is how you respond to it. The same holds true for entrenched sexism. Some - I say some - of this is wound pretty deep into basic human nature. At the most basic level, a preference for the known and familiar.

Now, we see around us, and in history, racism that has manifested in everything from vicious brutality to benign neglect and apathy. None of those outcomes are fantastic and some of them are appalling. Generally, my baseline would be that they be responded to accordingly.

Sorry for the vagueness. Still and all, while it is possible to go overboard, I don't think that sneaky racism that is driven by real malice should be given a free pass just because no naughty words were used. As a foreigner, the loopier ranting against Obama's health care policy springs to mind. And the birth certificate thing. And, and, and.
 
I don't like that the almost careless use of the word makes it harder for people to identify REAL racism. Too many people are quicker to call Keith Olbermann a racist than they are the KKK, and quicker to call Glenn Beck a racist than they are the New Black Panther Party. I have no problem with the word "racist" itself, but please, use it to classify someone who fits the term.

Fairly or not, the reality is that in life the only thing that really matters at the end of the day is perception. I am not saying that it should, but you are largely a product of how you are perceived, and I think that people who are particularly self-aware take great care in considering how they are perceived.

You may think that Rush Limbaugh is not a racist and that he's not a sexist. The reality is that many people, perhaps even MOST people perceive him to be racist and sexist. And this is not because of dementia on their part; it is attributable directly to his words and his actions (on a repeated basis).

It is hard, maybe even impossible to know whether any given person is truly a racist on the inside. But perceptions do matter and when large numbers of people perceive a person to be racist or their thoughts to be racist, it is more worthy to examine why they think so and whether there is any truth to it than it is to be outraged by some sort of malfeasance on their part.
 
Less important than racism itself, is how you respond to it. The same holds true for entrenched sexism. Some - I say some - of this is wound pretty deep into basic human nature. At the most basic level, a preference for the known and familiar.

Now, we see around us, and in history, racism that has manifested in everything from vicious brutality to benign neglect and apathy. None of those outcomes are fantastic and some of them are appalling. Generally, my baseline would be that they be responded to accordingly.

Sorry for the vagueness. Still and all, while it is possible to go overboard, I don't think that sneaky racism that is driven by real malice should be given a free pass just because no naughty words were used. As a foreigner, the loopier ranting against Obama's health care policy springs to mind. And the birth certificate thing. And, and, and.

Great post.

I'd also like to add that I believe some of the more subtle racism can at times actually be more destructive than the overt white hood type of racism. And I think this is the complex issue we are dealing with right now in North America.
 
I guess, to put it another way, it's not wise to bring a bunker-busting tank to a fist-fight. Sometimes seemingly trivial incidents can be illustrative of larger problems, but that judgement requires great caution.

When it's a case of someone committing a faux paus out of simple ignorance, you gotta tread very carefully indeed (although I've read many blog threads, including ones local to my own country, that would disagree strongly with that). Using the wrong word is not a hanging offence. Using the nice or polite word with malice to slip a knife in under the radar, well that's a different matter.

None of that has any bearing on Rush Limbaugh, of course. From what I can tell, if he is not racist, he is maybe something worse - a deeply cynical man with contempt for his listeners. His effect, from what I can tell, is wholly poisonous to American politics.
 
When it's a case of someone committing a faux paus out of simple ignorance, you gotta tread very carefully indeed

Very true, and this is a perfect example of it's "how you respond to it", like you said, that makes the difference.

If my grandmother says something, and I tell her "grandma it's really not polite to say "oriental", "negro", "queer", etc she has two choices: either apologize and find a more polite way to say it, or say damnnit I'll call them what I want to call them.

We see this in interference all the time.
 
Very true, and this is a perfect example of it's "how you respond to it", like you said, that makes the difference.

If my grandmother says something, and I tell her "grandma it's really not polite to say "oriental", "negro", "queer", etc she has two choices: either apologize and find a more polite way to say it, or say damnnit I'll call them what I want to call them.

We see this in interference all the time.

What's wrong with oriental?
 
What's wrong with oriental?

Here's a fairly good explanation:

Perceptions and connotations
An important factor in the usage of 'Oriental', regardless of perceptions of pejorativeness, is that it collectively refers to cultural, ethnic and national groupings of people who do not necessarily identify themselves as associated, and hence can lead to inaccurate assumptions about similarity.

[edit] American English
While a number of reference works used in the United States describe Oriental as pejorative, antiquated or offensive in some instances, the American Heritage Book of English Usage notes that

It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission. In these cases Asian (or a more specific term such as Vietnamese, Korean, or Asian American, if appropriate) is the only acceptable term. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term.[3]
Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language states "Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate." This Guide to Sensitive Language suggests the use of "Asian or more specific designation such as Pacific Islander, Chinese American, [or] Korean." [4] Merriam-Webster describes the term as "sometimes offensive,"[5] Encarta states when the term is used as a noun it is considered "a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia." [6]

Orient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Very true, and this is a perfect example of it's "how you respond to it", like you said, that makes the difference.

If my grandmother says something, and I tell her "grandma it's really not polite to say "oriental", "negro", "queer", etc she has two choices: either apologize and find a more polite way to say it, or say damnnit I'll call them what I want to call them.

We see this in interference all the time.

My grandfather thinks he is the most tolerant and socially responsible person in the world. But mention Jewish people and he rants about loan sharks and shysters in the depression. Everyone has their definition of what ok is, and where the line is.
 
I don't like that the almost careless use of the word makes it harder for people to identify REAL racism.

To an extent, I agree with you here.

There also seems to be a certain PCness about certain terms that we used around race (and I don't mean obviously racist words like n*****)

In Ireland, there are what are now called 'travelling people' or 'travellers' but what historically were called 'gypsies'.

Many years ago, certain people on the left in Ireland decreed that we must not call them 'gypsies' any more, that this was an offensive term to use, and suggested the term 'itinerant' instead.

More recently still - you've guessed it - it has been decreed that the term 'itinerant' is also offensive and should no longer be used. In fact, there is nothing offensive about the term 'itinerant' - it quite literally means someone that travels around from place to place. The sad truth is that it is a section of the 'travelling community' that make these terms offensive, by their 'lifestyle' of robbing, criminality and in some cases murder.

It seems that terms like 'black' must not be used, that black people must be called 'African Americans', but of course there are black people that are neither African or American, so go figure.

I have heard it suggested, apparently seriously, that the term 'Jew' is in itself offensive. Well, it may be, depending on context and the person using it - but not always.
 
My grandfather thinks he is the most tolerant and socially responsible person in the world. But mention Jewish people and he rants about loan sharks and shysters in the depression. Everyone has their definition of what ok is, and where the line is.

Yeah, my grandmother used to live in a neighborhood that was 99% African American, some of her best friends were black, went to a church that was 50-50 but when she would talk about segregation she talked about it almost as if she never saw the problem with it. Not that she wished it still existed there's was just never any sense of unjust in her voice when she spoke about it. It was very odd to me as a child.
 
To an extent, I agree with you here.

There also seems to be a certain PCness about certain terms that we used around race (and I don't mean obviously racist words like n*****)

In Ireland, there are what are now called 'travelling people' or 'travellers' but what historically were called 'gypsies'.

Many years ago, certain people on the left in Ireland decreed that we must not call them 'gypsies' any more, that this was an offensive term to use, and suggested the term 'itinerant' instead.

More recently still - you've guessed it - it has been decreed that the term 'itinerant' is also offensive and should no longer be used. In fact, there is nothing offensive about the term 'itinerant' - it quite literally means someone that travels around from place to place. The sad truth is that it is a section of the 'travelling community' that make these terms offensive, by their 'lifestyle' of robbing, criminality and in some cases murder.

It seems that terms like 'black' must not be used, that black people must be called 'African Americans', but of course there are black people that are neither African or American, so go figure.

I have heard it suggested, apparently seriously, that the term 'Jew' is in itself offensive. Well, it may be, depending on context and the person using it - but not always.

I hate rants against "PC ness", because so many of them come off as an unwillingness to grow. Many of them sound like the cranky old white man that would just prefer the days of when he could slap a girl on her ass and call her a 'broad'.

That being said, I also think this too can get out of hand. But it's a matter of empathy to me. I honestly don't think most black people mind being called black, but it's slightly different when you call them "a black" or describe something as "black".
 
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