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Old 10-18-2008, 06:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
the fact that BHO beat HRC and is clearly leading in the polls says as much about his considerable political gifts, organizing prowess, and charisma, as it does about the fact that the American people seem to have finally learned that electing people "just like me" is what causes us to lose two wars, destroy the economy, and drown a major American city.
Obama clearly has more charisma, and a better ground game with money to burn. Especially in the swing states. He has earned the position he's in right now.

But as far as the losing of two wars, destroying of the economy, the drowning of a city.....well, these have been debated and disputed in plenty of other threads. And probably not in the spirit of VintagePunk's thread.
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:21 PM   #77
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For Conservatives, the choice is obvious: it has to be Barack Obama - Telegraph
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:48 AM   #78
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An Op-Ed in the NYT about how McCain beat himself:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/opinion/19rich.html

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At least McCain had half a point on Wednesday night when he said, “I am not President Bush.” What he has offered his country this year is an older, crankier, more unsteady version of Bush. Tragically, he can no sooner escape our despised president than he can escape himself.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:28 AM   #79
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Token black? I guess that is not considered racist for liberals. From looking at this article people want to vote against Barack for racist reasons just as much as Iraq policy. It's also ignoring that the war in Iraq is essentially won and that troops are already starting to come back by January 2009 and the fight to secure Afghanistan will be the next goal.

The only argument for conservatives that Barack is better is only the argument that Barack will be tested by a conservative opposition that will want fodder for the 2012 election. By then Americans will be tired of him.

If Barack is all things to all people then he will do the Clinton thing and preside over the natural recovery of the market and take credit for things that have little to do with him and pass blame over to people that are not responsible. Is Obama going to be a conservative then? Well then that's fine by me.

If he wins the next 4 years will actually be fun.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:32 AM   #80
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The war in Iraq is won??? i suppose a further discussion of that comment would derail an otherwise wonderful thread, but that is a ludicrous statement amidst a ludicrous post.
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Old 10-19-2008, 11:46 AM   #81
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Token black? I guess that is not considered racist for liberals.



and the iraq war is won? x 2
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:18 PM   #82
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McCain was correct on the Iraq war and what is bullshit is the tired old WMD argument that Democrats like to bring up in an attempt to discredit the war. It misses the key fundamental reasons of why Saddam had to removed in 2003, and ignores what Saddam's capabilities could be today if he were left in power as Barack Obama would have foolishly allowed to happen.

Colin Powel today on meet the press:

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MR. BROKAW: Removing the weapons of mass destruction from the equation, because we now know that they did not exist, was it then a war of necessity or just a war of choice?

GEN. POWELL: Without the weapons of mass destruction present, as conveyed to us by the intelligence community in the most powerful way, I don't think there would have been a war. It was the reason we took it to the public, it was the reason we took it to the American people to the Congress, who supported it on that basis, and it's the presentation I made to the United Nations. Without those weapons of mass destruction then Iraq did not present to the world the kind of threat that it did if it had weapons of mass destruction.
Sweet Jesus Colin Powell is spreading BULLSHIT like the democrats. My goodness, he clearly did not understand the issues that were going on at the time.

Maybe he was brainwashed? WTF......
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:12 PM   #83
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Colin Powel today on meet the press:



Sweet Jesus Colin Powell is spreading BULLSHIT like the democrats. My goodness, he clearly did not understand the issues that were going on at the time.

Maybe he was brainwashed? WTF......
I eagerly await Sting's dismissal of Powell's obviously inexperienced and politically biased opinion.
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:25 PM   #84
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I eagerly await Sting's dismissal of Powell's obviously inexperienced and politically biased opinion.
Yeah, and his vote on Resolution 1441.
Oh, wait...
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:38 PM   #85
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I eagerly await Sting's dismissal of Powell's obviously inexperienced and politically biased opinion.
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:21 PM   #86
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The war in Iraq is won??? i suppose a further discussion of that comment would derail an otherwise wonderful thread, but that is a ludicrous statement amidst a ludicrous post.
Conservatives don't think the Iraq war is lost, hence the beginning of troop withdrawal in January. If you don't want to hear conservative points of view then start a thread of what "liberals think of conservatives".

What, do you think Conservatives are all down on Iraq? Many are happy with the surge including Obama.
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:27 PM   #87
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Conservatives don't think the Iraq war is lost, hence the beginning of troop withdrawal in January. If you don't want to hear conservative points of view then start a thread of what "liberals think of conservatives".

What, do you think Conservatives are all down on Iraq? Many are happy with the surge including Obama.
But you're dodging the point. You said the war was 'won'. There isn't even really an agreed paradigm for what 'winning' means in this war. Just because the violence went down doesn't mean the war is won. The most common thing I've heard is that the war is won when the region is stable. The region is not stable. Taking Saddam out of power has re-ignited the shite-sunni conflict. The government we've set up there in fact favors one side over the other. What many of us on the left feel is that it is best to let these factions decide their fate for themselves, even if that means an Iraqi civil war - that if we simply wait for the region to be stable, we'll be there forever. To say the war is 'won' is to oversimplify things and put a bright spin on a complex, volatile situation.
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Old 10-19-2008, 11:31 PM   #88
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I eagerly await Sting's dismissal of Powell's obviously inexperienced and politically biased opinion.
He just doesn't understand...
Oil is vital...
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:51 AM   #89
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But you're dodging the point. You said the war was 'won'. There isn't even really an agreed paradigm for what 'winning' means in this war. Just because the violence went down doesn't mean the war is won. The most common thing I've heard is that the war is won when the region is stable. The region is not stable. Taking Saddam out of power has re-ignited the shite-sunni conflict. The government we've set up there in fact favors one side over the other. What many of us on the left feel is that it is best to let these factions decide their fate for themselves, even if that means an Iraqi civil war - that if we simply wait for the region to be stable, we'll be there forever. To say the war is 'won' is to oversimplify things and put a bright spin on a complex, volatile situation.
Well we disagree on this area, I mean the subject is the war. It's to be expected.

I think if Obama wins he should consider using Petraeus in Afghanistan and increase troops. Then work with Pakistan to eliminate the Taliban there. It seems consistent enough with Obama's opinion of Afghanistan being the main goal for the war on terror. It will be interesting to see if he decides to side with the popularity of withdrawal or seize the opportunity to finish the mission.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:09 PM   #90
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Well we disagree on this area, I mean the subject is the war. It's to be expected.

What is there to disagree on? You said the war in Iraq is esentially won(which even Patreous would scratch his head with that one), but you haven't shown us anything to back that statement up, and namkcuR called you out on that...
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