Questions for Conservatives - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-17-2008, 05:14 PM   #61
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 02:24 PM
I am glad to see my post was disected.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 08:07 PM   #62
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
I am glad to see my post was disected.

Congratulations! You've been "Strongbowed".


I do think your post illustrated very clearly why so many people who once preferred McCain over any other candidate are now disillusioned with him and either definitely not voting for him or seriously considering not voting for him. And his actions have certainly scared off many voters who weren't huge McCain fans, but may have been convinced to vote for him. What has always been good about McCain has been very difficult (at best) to find recently.
__________________

__________________
indra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 08:42 PM   #63
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
I know that Conservatives are a minority in this forum, .
That's actually an understatement. Conservatives are a the tiniest of fractions on these boards:

Who Posted?
Total Posts: 62
User Name Posts
Strongbow 8
BonoVoxSupastar 7
VintagePunk 6
Dreadsox 5
purpleoscar 5
financeguy 3
phillyfan26 3
Diemen 2
Irvine511 2
~BrightestStar~ 2
U2isthebest 2
maycocksean 2
yolland 2
Utoo 2
indra 1
cydewaze 1
corianderstem 1
namkcuR 1
LemonMelon 1
UberBeaver 1
No spoken words 1
anitram 1
toscano 1
Se7en 1
TheEdge U2JT

Actually there are only 2-3 'conservatives' of the 24 respondents in this thread-and the thread was addressed to "conservatives".

I do appreciate you trying to be constructive and kind VP, but I will not engage.
It leads no where productive, but only to contention.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 12:06 AM   #64
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,700
Local Time: 11:24 AM
I made a post in this thread? I'm sorry if I contributed to the derailing instead of something constructive. I don't even remembe rhwat I posted.
__________________
corianderstem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 12:10 AM   #65
Blue Crack Supplier
 
~BrightestStar~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gettin' hot in a photobooth....livin it up in Ikeaville
Posts: 35,735
Local Time: 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
but I will not engage.

<>
Which may be part of the problem. If there are already so few and then most of them back off well...

I know it's hard to be lil guy facing the giant

Anyhoo

I was genuinely looking forward to seeing the view from the other side. Hence why I contributed some of what my prof has told me. I really respect the man, and while I think he may be a little atypical, I've really enjoyed exploring his and my views. In fact, I would say talking with him has helped me to be a little more fair in both my assessments of Obama and McCain.

I hoped a thread like this could lead to more of the same constructive discussion.


Thus, I hope my contributions to the thread, despite me not being a conservative, are not of a derailing nature.
If otherwise....Sorry VPee.
__________________
~BrightestStar~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 01:19 AM   #66
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post

I do appreciate you trying to be constructive and kind VP, but I will not engage.
It leads no where productive, but only to contention.

<>
It's too bad you feel that way. I think the thread has been a somewhat productive with minimal contention. What would make it more productive is if more conservatives other than the few who have posted would give their thoughts, but so far both you and STING have declined. Hopefully others will see it and be willing to post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I made a post in this thread? I'm sorry if I contributed to the derailing instead of something constructive. I don't even remembe rhwat I posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~BrightestStar~ View Post


Thus, I hope my contributions to the thread, despite me not being a conservative, are not of a derailing nature.
If otherwise....Sorry VPee.
Very little derailing has gone on as far as I'm concerned, and what little there was stopped very quickly. I just wanted a thread where people could state and discuss their thoughts, but not necessarily have to defend them - more of an analysis of the campaign than a defense of political beliefs, you know? That sort of thing fascinates me, and I was looking forward to hearing from people with views different from mine.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
__________________
VintagePunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 01:31 AM   #67
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
I do appreciate you trying to be constructive and kind VP, but I will not engage.
It leads no where productive, but only to contention.

<>
Huh. That's not the diamond that usually shows up in FYM.
__________________
indra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 11:01 AM   #68
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by indra View Post
Huh. That's not the diamond that usually shows up in FYM.
I agree with diamond that it can get exhausting in debating with tons of people. It can actually change your mood for the day.

He just needs to take a break to recharge his batteries before another post.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 11:09 AM   #69
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:24 PM
Good thread, great topic. I'd be interested to get more conservative feedback as well.

I've got 3 fronts where McCain's really failed that haven't been discussed enough here:

1) I have to say, McCain's demeanor has just been strange. He's gotten all twitchy and sarcastic and rolls his eyes like a teenage girl and flicks his tongue like a lizard, and it all comes off as not someone you'd like to be president. Especially when contrasted wtih Obama's calm demeaner, which has outlasted the critics who said he was aloof and alienating and too cool - it looks like the country wants someone who is cool and calm.

McCain at this point is pulling an exact repeat of Hillary Clinton. He's realized that his presidential dreams are slipping out of his grasp to "that one." He looks desperate, and that doesn't impress voters. He's gotten more and more vicious and started telling more and more lies, just like Clinton did. It's an incredible repeat, not just of campaign strategy but of individual behavior.

2) The ground game. Some of it's about resources: Obama has more money and volunteers because he's more captivating. But it's also strategy. the Obama campaign set out from the start of the primary season designing a massive field operation, putting up a website that facilitates community engagement and volunteer-run events. Door to door precinct-captain style politics, which were huge as I understand it in the middle of the 20th century, is proving to be extremely effective. Talking to neighbors both to solidify support and GOTV.

3) Going negative. His 100% negative ads have not been received well, and have been an abysmal miscalculation, especially with the economic troubles.
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 11:55 AM   #70
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varitek View Post
Good thread, great topic. I'd be interested to get more conservative feedback as well.

I've got 3 fronts where McCain's really failed that haven't been discussed enough here:

1) I have to say, McCain's demeanor has just been strange. He's gotten all twitchy and sarcastic and rolls his eyes like a teenage girl and flicks his tongue like a lizard, and it all comes off as not someone you'd like to be president. Especially when contrasted wtih Obama's calm demeaner, which has outlasted the critics who said he was aloof and alienating and too cool - it looks like the country wants someone who is cool and calm.

McCain at this point is pulling an exact repeat of Hillary Clinton. He's realized that his presidential dreams are slipping out of his grasp to "that one." He looks desperate, and that doesn't impress voters. He's gotten more and more vicious and started telling more and more lies, just like Clinton did. It's an incredible repeat, not just of campaign strategy but of individual behavior.

2) The ground game. Some of it's about resources: Obama has more money and volunteers because he's more captivating. But it's also strategy. the Obama campaign set out from the start of the primary season designing a massive field operation, putting up a website that facilitates community engagement and volunteer-run events. Door to door precinct-captain style politics, which were huge as I understand it in the middle of the 20th century, is proving to be extremely effective. Talking to neighbors both to solidify support and GOTV.

3) Going negative. His 100% negative ads have not been received well, and have been an abysmal miscalculation, especially with the economic troubles.
I think the economic problems are the reason. McCain is going hard on Obama because he's been too nice too long. His focus should be on the economy and taxes. This is where he could differentiate himself with Obama. Going hard on Obama is helping in the public more than people will admit. Of course liberals and liberal commentators in the media don't agree. Obama is going negative on McCain and why is that not backfiring?

Also some conservatives are exasperated and want Obama to win because they feel it will help kick out the moderates in the conservative party that were spending too much and want Obama to be on the criticized side for 4 years and come up with a nominee that is more conservative than McCain. When parties have in-fights it usually spells doom. The only person that isn't as divisive for conservatives is Sarah Palin. Romney and Huckabee would be more divisive.

The Buckley Son Rises by Kathleen Parker on National Review Online

Buckley's son is supporting Obama now.

In the end it's not over until it's over. Whoever can get people to actually vote will win.

Yet can we trust the polls?

How big a lead does Barack Obama really enjoy over John McCain? | In poll position | The Economist
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 12:14 PM   #71
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:24 PM
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 04:12 PM   #72
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 02:24 PM
To the people who have responded to the first post, you've all brought up some great points, things I would have listed myself (to those of you who didn't, shame on you ).

I've tried very hard to assess the campaign with an unbiased eye. To do this, I sort of think to myself "what advice would you give the campaign if you were working for them?" Sometimes I think I come up with better answers than those who are actually managing the campaign. Anyway, here are a few things that seem very obvious to me:

-Negative attacks are not working this election cycle, period. It shows in the polls, and it's been shown in the debates. Every time he goes blatantly negative, it turns a large segment of voters off. Why is he still doing this? It seems to me that he's modeling the campaign off of previous campaigns that have used this type of message successfully, so why is it not working for him? Has the American public woken up from some collective fog after eight years of a Bush administration, and they're no longer driven to vote by negativity? Or is the McCain campaign using negative campaigning in an incorrect way? One thing that's occurred to me is that the Bush campaign used a couple of negative factors and drilled them into people's minds over and over until they were so ingrained, they practically became The Truth - flip-flopping, and Swiftboating. McCain is all over the place with his negativity. One day Obama is a Muslim. The next day he's a terrorist, or at the very least, a terrorist sympathizer. Then his wife hates America. Then his former pastor is a radical who hates America. Then he's going to steal from the rich and give to the poor, and doesn't that make him a socialist? And on and on. I think it's gotten to the point that Americans have been so oversaturated with Obama controversy/falsehoods that they've pretty much tuned it out, and now they're hating the messenger. This ties in to my next point:

-McCain and his campaign have seemed terribly erratic, both in message and in behaviour. He needs a few good talking points, and he needs to stay on message. I think he may be starting to improve in this area in recent days, talking more and more about the differences between him and Obama with regard to taxes and the economy, but it's probably too little, too late. Behaviourally, he needs someone to coach him with regard to body language and facial expression during debates, because he certainly doesn't hide his contempt well. He's been coming off as an angry old man, probably seeming irrational, and I don't think that's what American moderates want leading their country these days. The eye rolling, the tongue thrusting, the excessive blinking, and the angry expressions aren't doing him any favours. His habit of repeating certain phrases over and over is annoying, to say the least. In the last debate, he finally nixed "my friends" from his vernacular, but he replaced it with "Joe the plumber." When people use the same phrases over and over, it makes them seem like a shady salesman to me, and I don't think I'm out of the ordinary in feeling that way. The term "maverick" has become a joke these days. He should be speaking to the American public in a more relaxed, conversational way. He's capable of it - I've seen him make appearances on tv where he does come off as more relaxed and congenial. Stop acting like he's trying to sell the American public a used car that's going to fall apart as soon as it drives off the lot.

-The Palin choice has been a failure, in my view, but it didn't necessarily need to be that way. She has not brought over many Hillary democrats or moderates. To the contrary, I think that many women have been insulted that the campaign assumed someone like her could act as their surrogate Hillary. Where she does excel though is in solidifying the Republican base. If McCain had selected her earlier, so that her public vetting had been a distant memory by now, perhaps that might have been to his advantage. As it is, all of the anti-Palin information and the astoundingly bad interviews are still fresh in our minds. Also, announcing her earlier, she could have done what she seems to have been settling into nicely, lately - satisfying the base, while McCain could have spent more of his energy courting the moderates.

-Varitek made an excellent point regarding the ground games of the two campaigns, and in one of the other threads a few weeks ago, I posted an article from 538 that talked about the stark contrast between the two campaigns. Obama's is a large, well-oiled, energetic, grassroots effort. McCain's seems to be practically nonexistent in comparison. What could have been done about that? Well, for starters, energy, tone and motivation has to come from the top, and it seems that McCain volunteers just aren't getting that.

-Finally, I think that a major factor in McCain's campaign and its flaws is simply how poorly it compares to the Obama campaign. Obama's has been practically flawless, from what I can tell, and holding up the McCain campaign in comparison, or probably any other campaign, for that matter, makes McCain's flaws all the more glaring and obvious.


There's much more I could add, but I'll leave it at that for now. When I grow up, I think I should be a campaign advisor.
__________________
VintagePunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 05:00 PM   #73
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,882
Local Time: 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
What do you think he's done wrong? What do you think he's done right? What should he have done differently?
McCain has run a scattershot campaign. No serious focus on any one issue, no rallying cry.

Suspending the campaign for the bailout talks was a clear gimmick. And failure. His idea for the government to buy out every bad mortgage and renegotiate them, hatched right before the second debate, was completely out of left field.

Governor Palin was a shortsighted pick. She served her purpose at the convention by giving a great speech and getting the mainstream media's attention. But a real maverick would have chosen someone like Lieberman, evangelicals be damned.

Should have hammered Obama more for opting out of public funding, after Obama's earlier promise to take public funding.

Should have hammered Obama harder on the Surge. This should be right in McCain's wheelhouse, and he's let Obama off the hook.

Drilling washed-up terrorist Bill Ayers into our heads is a mistake. No one cares. Obama's dealings with Chicago ganster Rezko is more legitimate. His 20-year relationship with Reverend Wright has to be particulary appalling to many voters, including myself. I think it's a completely legitimate issue, but obviously McCain has disagreed so far. Doesn't want to be framed as a racist by the other side, I guess.

But in spite of the slip-ups, and in spite of general Bush fatigue around the country, McCain and Obama were virtually tied until the stock market crash. And now McCain is in a bad spot.
__________________
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 05:31 PM   #74
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,471
Local Time: 02:24 PM
"virtually tied" until the stock market crash isn't accurate.

McCain was coming off his convention bounced when the stock market went haywire, and was losing steam beforehand. we can't forget that the RNC happened the week after the DNC, and McCain unveiled his unconventional VP pick the day after Obama's acceptance speech. none of these things have ever been done before, and they were designed to get as much mileage out of the convention and VP as possible. i think Palin turned out to be more of a media circus than anyone ever thought, which gave McCain an inflated bounce longer than anyone ever thought. but now Palin's negatives are well above her positives, and she's turned out to be a huge drag on the ticket despite the bounce she gave McCain in early September.

so the notion that the race was "tied" before the stock market craziness isn't an accurate reflection of the status of the two campaigns. the GOP was riding a bounce that was sure to come down, and then it was McCain's reaction to the stock market that ensured he fell further than he took off.

so it's less, "poor McCain, things beyond his control," and more, "poor McCain, can't handle a crisis."

people continue to talk about how amazing it is that McCain is even within 8 points in the polls (that's the poll of polls average right now). we have to keep reminding ourselves that McCain has made his reputation on being a RINO (republican in name only) and for being someone who was interested in bipartisanship. he was widely mentioned as a possible VP pick for John Kerry in 2004. his brand name is not nearly as vulnerable to the astonishing anti-GOP sentiment across the country and George W. Bush as now the most disliked president in history. if any Republican had a shot this year, it was McCain. and he has an indisputably compelling life story.

and let's also not forget that the GOP has spent that past 30 years telling the American people that it doesn't matter if a president is smart or competent, it only matters if he's "authentic" or "just like you." well, who is less like you than an african-american intellectual born in Hawaii named Barack Hussein Obama?

the fact that BHO beat HRC and is clearly leading in the polls says as much about his considerable political gifts, organizing prowess, and charisma, as it does about the fact that the American people seem to have finally learned that electing people "just like me" is what causes us to lose two wars, destroy the economy, and drown a major American city.

but racism is alive and well, and it's all they've got left.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 05:52 PM   #75
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
sue4u2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: hatching some plot, scheming some scheme
Posts: 6,628
Local Time: 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UberBeaver View Post
Once I heard he had adopted the same people that Bush used I was done with him.
And I think this may be a huge factor.
There is more history/research being done this time around - about both candidates.

That is bringing up more McCain scrutiny.
and they don't like what what they are reading.
__________________

__________________
sue4u2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com