Pure, uneducated ignorance. Go religion!

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bono_212 said:
I was going to respond to your last post with an answer to this question, so I see you and I are on the same page of discussion here:

Honestly? I don't think so, but let me explain: I see the mountains of evidence, I accept that there is science and fact behind them. I don't know what to think. What I know is this, I believe in God, most assuredly. I believe that the Bible is God-breathed, but I believe it is up to us as individuals to find our way through it with guidance from our Church/Leaders (but ultimately ourselves). But, in believing that, there comes with it the question: If the beginning of the Bible is the beginning of Earth and Evolution has a mountain of evidence behind it, where did hundreds of millions of years of history go?

What I end up deciding at the end of the day is: I don't know. But I don't see Evolution in the Bible, I don't see 300 million years of history. I don't choose to fight over it, I choose to focus on more important things instead: Being as good a person as I can be, giving to those what I can, donating my time to those who need it, "preaching" brotherhood among people, rather than hatred and judgment, etc.

So, do I believe in evolutionary theory? Not really. Does the thought of whether or not I'm right or wrong keep me up at night? No. It's not really important to me in the grand scheme of things. And that's what I'll likely explain to my children, should they decide to follow in my beliefs and, at some point, some to this same scientific high school fork in the road.

Does that make sense? I'm not being willfully ignorant, I've done research, when I've had a mind to, I've heard the theories behind Intelligent Design as well (I don't buy into those either, fwiw, not because I refuse to accept evolution in any form, I just think it's people trying to rectify in order to get their way, kind of like what you said), it just doesn't work with what I believe, and I can accept that. I can't explain it, but I truly believe I'll know what in the world was going on someday.
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Very nicely put :) There's something old timey about that that I really like (that probably reads incredibly condescendingly, but I mean it with high regard. I like to try to keep a bit of old timey in my life too). I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "where did the hundreds of millions of years go" though. Can you expand on that a bit?
Might not be what you mean, but if we're talking about evolution, there's something like 3.8 billion years of activity
 
maycocksean said:
The idea that God created the world is a religious belief, not a scientific one. Believers have to learn to be comfortable with that. I for one, am. I believe that God created everything (though I think it's highly unlikely that it was in 6 literal days six thousand years ago. There's just too much overwhelming evidence to the contrary) but I recognize this as a matter of personal faith, and not something that is appropriate to be injected into the world of science (at least not without supporting scientific evidence, which does not exist at this point).
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My thoughts exactly.
 
maycocksean said:
Nope.

I feel the same about teaching creationism.

The idea that God created the world is a religious belief, not a scientific one. Believers have to learn to be comfortable with that. I for one, am. I believe that God created everything (though I think it's highly unlikely that it was in 6 literal days six thousand years ago. There's just too much overwhelming evidence to the contrary) but I recognize this as a matter of personal faith, and not something that is appropriate to be injected into the world of science (at least not without supporting scientific evidence, which does not exist at this point).
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You are a model religious guy (imho ;) )
 
LemonMelon said:
I believe in evolution as a process based in fact, but I've also yet to find a compelling reason to give up faith in an interventionist God because of it. I'm quite comfortable where I am. I believe everyone should have a chance to reach that point as well; a belief system based in ignorance is a weak one.

Let your kids learn the current scientific thought at school and if you believe something else, tell them what you think. But don't suppress knowledge because you either lack it or interpret it differently.
Click to expand...

:up:

Why can't they all be like you lot?
 
Jive Turkey said:
Very nicely put :) There's something old timey about that that I really like (that probably reads incredibly condescendingly, but I mean it with high regard. I like to try to keep a bit of old timey in my life too). I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "where did the hundreds of millions of years go" though. Can you expand on that a bit?
Might not be what you mean, but if we're talking about evolution, there's something like 3.8 billion years of activity
Click to expand...

Haha, I actually kinda got what you meant.

Damn it, that's what I thought, but Travis and I were talking about this while shopping at Barnes and Noble and sipping Starbucks while texting to you all, as yuppie college students are wont to do, and he told me 300 million. Blame him.

But seriously, I agreed with him as soon as he said it, because there's SOMETHING about the number 300 million, I know there is. What is it, Jive? TELL ME.
 
bono_212 said:
Are you a teacher, Sean? This has nothing to do with Religion, it just sounds like you'd be a good one.
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I am.

And I teach middle school science in a Christian private school.

And our denomination has a very traditional view of origins.

Of course being a private school, we can kind of "teach whatever we want" but I personally don't feel comfortable teaching my students that creation is scientific fact. It's doing them a disservice and is only going to set them up to be blindsided later when that teaching is challenged and up-ended.

From a science teacher's perspective, I feel my students need to understand evolutionary theory, they need to understand and appreciate what meets the standards of scientific fact and what does not. They need to understand why the scientific community accepts evolution as fact.

But I also teach my students their Bible class too, and from that perspective I want them to understand that it is okay to believe in God as Creator. I want them to understand that their faith is separate from (but not necessarily incompatible with) their understanding of science.
 
bono_212 said:
Haha, I actually kinda got what you meant.

Damn it, that's what I thought, but Travis and I were talking about this while shopping at Barnes and Noble and sipping Starbucks while texting to you all, as yuppie college students are wont to do, and he told me 300 million. Blame him.

But seriously, I agreed with him as soon as he said it, because there's SOMETHING about the number 300 million, I know there is. What is it, Jive? TELL ME.
Click to expand...

Dimetrodons
 
bono_212 said:
I was going to respond to your last post with an answer to this question, so I see you and I are on the same page of discussion here:

Honestly? I don't think so, but let me explain: I see the mountains of evidence, I accept that there is science and fact behind them. I don't know what to think. What I know is this, I believe in God, most assuredly. I believe that the Bible is God-breathed, but I believe it is up to us as individuals to find our way through it with guidance from our Church/Leaders (but ultimately ourselves). But, in believing that, there comes with it the question: If the beginning of the Bible is the beginning of Earth and Evolution has a mountain of evidence behind it, where did hundreds of millions of years of history go?

What I end up deciding at the end of the day is: I don't know. But I don't see Evolution in the Bible, I don't see 300 million years of history. I don't choose to fight over it, I choose to focus on more important things instead: Being as good a person as I can be, giving to those what I can, donating my time to those who need it, "preaching" brotherhood among people, rather than hatred and judgment, etc.

So, do I believe in evolutionary theory? Not really. Does the thought of whether or not I'm right or wrong keep me up at night? No. It's not really important to me in the grand scheme of things. And that's what I'll likely explain to my children, should they decide to follow in my beliefs and, at some point, come to this same scientific high school fork in the road.

Does that make sense? I'm not being willfully ignorant, I've done research, when I've had a mind to, I've heard the theories behind Intelligent Design as well (I don't buy into those either, fwiw, not because I refuse to accept evolution in any form, I just think it's people trying to rectify in order to get their way, kind of like what you said), it just doesn't work with what I believe, and I can accept that. I can't explain it, but I truly believe I'll know what in the world was going on someday.
Click to expand...

LemonMelon said:
I believe in evolution as a process based in fact, but I've also yet to find a compelling reason to give up faith in an interventionist God because of it. I'm quite comfortable where I am. I believe everyone should have a chance to reach that point as well; a belief system based in ignorance is a weak one.

Let your kids learn the current scientific thought at school and if you believe something else, tell them what you think. But don't suppress knowledge because you either lack it or interpret it differently.
Click to expand...

You both have articulated quite well how I feel on the subject.

bono_212, I've always said my objections to evolution are theological not scientific. For me it's hard to reconcile our understanding of sin and death with the process of evolution which pretty much requires death to take place. But again this is purely a theological question and has no place in the science lab.

At the same time, I'm inclined to view the first chapter or two of Genesis as the author's best attempt to explain something that he never personally witnessed. I find that insisting on a literal reading of the creation story is very limiting to God. To insist that God created the world this way because that's the way I read it in the text is putting God in a very small box. For me it is enough to say that God created. Whether that means He is the author of the Big Bang or something else I can't claim to know.
 
And from it's shaky beginnings, thoughtful discussion! This thread is evolving right before your eyes folks
 
LemonMelon said:
I was half asleep, get off my ass.

Ashley said 6 billion wide awake
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One you get past 1 billion, it's all the same.
maycocksean said:
I am.

And I teach middle school science in a Christian private school.

And our denomination has a very traditional view of origins.

Of course being a private school, we can kind of "teach whatever we want" but I personally don't feel comfortable teaching my students that creation is scientific fact. It's doing them a disservice and is only going to set them up to be blindsided later when that teaching is challenged and up-ended.

From a science teacher's perspective, I feel my students need to understand evolutionary theory, they need to understand and appreciate what meets the standards of scientific fact and what does not. They need to understand why the scientific community accepts evolution as fact.

But I also teach my students their Bible class too, and from that perspective I want them to understand that it is okay to believe in God as Creator. I want them to understand that their faith is separate from (but not necessarily incompatible with) their understanding of science.
Click to expand...

I like that. When I was in private school (only up until 3rd grade), I was pretty much prepared for trench warfare when it came to how to handle inevitable discussions of evolution if I ever went to public school. It was funny, I spent years of my life waiting in trepidation because of the way my elementary school teachers acted and when it finally came, I think we spent like a minute on the subject, in the grand scheme of science things (I like to say Grand Scheme so there).

I loved my elementary school otherwise, but I look back on it a bit sourly for that one.

Jive Turkey said:
Dimetrodons
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The source of all life.
maycocksean said:
You both have articulated quite well how I feel on the subject.

bono_212, I've always said my objections to evolution are theological not scientific. For me it's hard to reconcile our understanding of sin and death with the process of evolution which pretty much requires death to take place. But again this is purely a theological question and has no place in the science lab.

At the same time, I'm inclined to view the first chapter or two of Genesis as the author's best attempt to explain something that he never personally witnessed. I find that insisting on a literal reading of the creation story is very limiting to God. To insist that God created the world this way because that's the way I read it in the text is putting God in a very small box. For me it is enough to say that God created. Whether that means He is the author of the Big Bang or something else I can't claim to know.
Click to expand...

I think that sounds about right for me as well, really. I don't know why we have to talk about Religion in science class, I think we all know that there are people who don't agree. Move on. No one complains when Greek gods are mentioned in history class...well, almost no one.

I said earlier that I believe the Bible is God-Breathed and I basically take it at its word. To that end, of course there's still the "I just don't know" factor, and I can accept that for the most part. I find the Bible to be a living thing (the Living Word, etc.), and I get many different things out of it all the time. But, I don't usually go in search of the answers to this particular question, as, like I said before, it just doesn't bother me that much.



Anyways, did Jive say he was God just a minute ago?
 
bono_212 said:
I said earlier that I believe the Bible is God-Breathed and I basically take it at its word.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the Bible is inspired by God but written by men. I take it at it's word too, but I believe the writers were expressing, in many cases, the inexpressible, trying to put the divine into words we can understand. They were limited by their culture, their vocabulary, their knowledge. It's the Holy Spirit that makes the Word of God living and powerful.

When they talk about the sun standing still in the sky in the book of Joshua, we know that the sun didn't really "stand still" since it's not the sun, but the earth's movement that we're witnessing. But the author of Joshua didn't know that, and the Bible isn't meant to be a science textbook.


bono_212 said:
Anyways, did Jive say he was God just a minute ago?
Click to expand...

More or less :)
 
bono_212 said:
The source of all life.
Click to expand...

I hope I'm not going to make an ass of myself, but I think dimetrodons were precursors to protomammals... They certainly weren't direct ancestors to Dinosaurs like one would assume... Imma look into that
 
bono_212 said:
No one complains when Greek gods are mentioned in history class...well, almost no one.
Click to expand...

Oh, let me tell you, Biblical history is effin fascinating. I think the next book I read might be on the topic. My living room looks a bit like a Victorian natural history museum and I've got a coin from when Constantine ruled in a display case (ok, that part isn't natural history, but I have old antiquities too). I love that stuff
 
Jive Turkey said:
I hope I'm not going to make an ass of myself, but I think dimetrodons were precursors to protomammals... They certainly weren't direct ancestors to Dinosaurs like one would assume... Imma look into that
Click to expand...

Listen, you. If I want to start my own religion about Dimetrodon's being the source of life, you won't stop me.

Jive Turkey said:
Oh, let me tell you, Biblical history is effin fascinating. I think the next book I read might be on the topic. My living room looks a bit like a Victorian natural history museum and I've got a coin from when Constantine ruled in a display case (ok, that part isn't natural history, but I have old antiquities too). I love that stuff
Click to expand...

History is my favorite thing in the entire universe. I can't get enough. Especially mythology.

Jive Turkey said:
I did, yes.
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Heathen....



...is an album by David Bowie. It's quite good.
 
Americans are very sensitive when their personal religious beliefs, culture and overall ways of thinking are challenged.
This level of sensitivity causes these issues to arise quite frequently, something that should not happen given the common purpose of life.
 
Can I be right and wrong? Ok. Thanks

"Generally reptile-like in appearance and physiology, Dimetrodon is nevertheless more closely related to mammals than it is to any living reptilian group, though it is not a direct ancestor of any mammals. Dimetrodon belongs to a group traditionally called "mammal-like reptiles", more recently termed "stem-mammals" or "non-mammalian synapsids"[2] because many vertebrate paleontologists today group Dimetrodon together with mammals in an evolutionary group or clade called Synapsida while dinosaurs go together with living reptiles and birds in a separate group, Sauropsida. "
 
Dfit00 said:
Americans are very sensitive when their personal religious beliefs, culture and overall ways of thinking are challenged.
This level of sensitivity causes these issues to arise quite frequently, something that should not happen given the common purpose of life.
Click to expand...

I think it's just passion being expressed, though not always as focused as it could be. I'm certainly guilty of it. But I like that people can care so deeply about something that they get worked up every once in a while. As long as it eventually works its way toward thoughtful discussion as it did here, it serves its purpose. People get some shit off their chest and the juices start flowing (hopefully not out of a wound and onto the ground)
 
Lets see ill probably just kill this thread...


I've always gone by the saying that God has to be objective right? Either exists or doesn't. As soon as it turns subjective then it's just a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. Science is the process of making a claim a fact or not.

I wouldn't want opinions taught in science, at least not taught as FACT. If you want to believe in a young earth that's fine, and if you want it a part of science class, then please provide the evidence or scientific process to this idea.

Because religion is subjective, it allows believers to continue to hold their faith in spite of what we have found to dispute it. Just reading this thread proves its just one mans/woman's opinion. One person believes the bible is the word of god, another believes its written by man but inspired. If god was indeed a fact would we really have differing opinions? And then throw in the different faiths:beliefs. Every religion can't be right, but they can all be wrong.

I want to stress I don't see a problem with believing. If it makes you a better person, gives you comfort or strength, then please use it! Jive and I are more concerned and get the most upset when it appears as though a belief system is trying to find its way into a process, institution or part of life where it does not belong. Private schools, home schooling, house of worship, your own social group....say whatever and believe whatever you want.

But please keep whatever belief theories out of public education system
 
This kind of stuff definitely happens. A teacher at my husband's school got a talking-to because a parent complained s/he was teaching plate tectonics. All of the continents are where they were originally put by God. :crack:
 
BEAL said:
Lets see ill probably just kill this thread...


I've always gone by the saying that God has to be objective right? Either exists or doesn't. As soon as it turns subjective then it's just a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. Science is the process of making a claim a fact or not.

I wouldn't want opinions taught in science, at least not taught as FACT. If you want to believe in a young earth that's fine, and if you want it a part of science class, then please provide the evidence or scientific process to this idea.

Because religion is subjective, it allows believers to continue to hold their faith in spite of what we have found to dispute it. Just reading this thread proves its just one mans/woman's opinion. One person believes the bible is the word of god, another believes its written by man but inspired. If god was indeed a fact would we really have differing opinions? And then throw in the different faiths:beliefs. Every religion can't be right, but they can all be wrong.

I want to stress I don't see a problem with believing. If it makes you a better person, gives you comfort or strength, then please use it! Jive and I are more concerned and get the most upset when it appears as though a belief system is trying to find its way into a process, institution or part of life where it does not belong. Private schools, home schooling, house of worship, your own social group....say whatever and believe whatever you want.

But please keep whatever belief theories out of public education system
Click to expand...

:up::up: well said

Liesje said:
This kind of stuff definitely happens. A teacher at my husband's school got a talking-to because a parent complained s/he was teaching plate tectonics. All of the continents are where they were originally put by God. :crack:
Click to expand...

A talking to by whom? That's insanity
 
Why aren't we teaching the controversy of Thor? I saw a film, and have read books about where he came down to earth and caused mass destruction due to other God's/Beings from other planets chasing him, and/or trying to take some of our resources. He's got a magical hammar!

Why aren't our kids learning about this? If there are planets that are holding destructive forces or evil, we should know about it.

Why isn't science telling us this? Please don't make fun of me though, this is just what I believe in, and it has a special meaning in my life.
 
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