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Old 06-13-2013, 11:07 AM   #181
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If that's not for you, that's fine -- Jesus Himself said He didn't come for the people who had it all figured out, but for those who didn't. But let's not treat with derision and scorn those who are looking for wisdom in traditional places, just because you disagree with the source material.
Good point, nathan1977.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:54 AM   #182
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I don't believe anybody's all that good...
Really? I find that kind of a statement to be very absolutist.

Is it an extreme form of "we are all sinners" - because that I've come across in my religious upbringing, but it was never taken to the extreme that nobody is all that good.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #183
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I'm not sure what churches you've been to, but I've never been to a church that does this... Most people that I know that believe along these lines that Nathan talks about are older. My thought is that its developed through years of trying to justify certain things to themselves.
Original Sin is the basis of Christianity. I'm not sure what churches you've been attending
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:06 PM   #184
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Your personal enlightenment is fantastic...for you. Plenty of people need the wisdom of someone outside themselves in order to help them sort out issues like right and wrong, healthy and unhealthy choices, show them how to live a life of service and generosity, etc.
Well, jive wasn't enlightened from birth or anything. Maybe he was enlightened about creatures, he's pretty far ahead of the game there.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:17 PM   #185
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So when Hobbes says that people are inherently evil, it's OK, but if a Christian says it it's dogma?
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:19 PM   #186
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Your personal enlightenment is fantastic...for you. Plenty of people need the wisdom of someone outside themselves in order to help them sort out issues like right and wrong, healthy and unhealthy choices, show them how to live a life of service and generosity, etc. I don't buy the inherent arrogance of those who act like religion is a collection of old dusty books that everyone would be better off without and who treat with scorn anyone who gains wisdom from said books, any more than I buy the arrogance of those who act like religion is a club that only a qualified few (and usually only the people who look/think/sound like them) have access to.

If the story of human history is anything, it's that we are pretty damn far from perfect, and (if we're being honest) pretty shitty a lot of the time. Sometimes the most humble position to take is that we don't have it all figured out, and we could use some help.

If that's not for you, that's fine -- Jesus Himself said He didn't come for the people who had it all figured out, but for those who didn't. But let's not treat with derision and scorn those who are looking for wisdom in traditional places, just because you disagree with the source material.
Well you were the one that brought up subjectivity, as if I exist in some sort of state of moral chaos. My reply was a direct response to that, so don't get your panties in a twist. I hate to break it to you, but getting your morals from a book is no less subjective.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:22 PM   #187
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So when Hobbes says that people are inherently evil, it's OK, but if a Christian says it it's dogma?
Are people defending Hobbes in here? I don't think it's ok when he says it either
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:24 PM   #188
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Well, jive wasn't enlightened from birth or anything. Maybe he was enlightened about creatures, he's pretty far ahead of the game there.
I know a great deal about creatures
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:52 PM   #189
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Are people defending Hobbes in here? I don't think it's ok when he says it either
I think bono_212 mentioned him just to point out the seemingly Christian/religion bashing here.

As whether people can be inherently good or evil, that all depends on various angles and situations. No one is totally good from birth to death, and unless you are a born psychopath, the same can be said about being evil.

That said, I do believe humans do fall short. Not that I believe in original sin the way Christianity talks about it, but we are born flawed. Human beings just aren't perfect, and there's so much conflict and trials in life and it is rare to know the perfect decision in each case. Then again, that is because those conflicts and trials are very complex with long lists of pros and cons.
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:07 PM   #190
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I think bono_212 mentioned him just to point out the seemingly Christian/religion bashing here.
AKA a strawman argument.
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:14 PM   #191
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AKA a strawman argument.
Even so, but I felt the need to clarify what was said.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:40 PM   #192
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All I was saying is that it's been a pretty standard way of thinking for a very long time, religious or not, agree or not. It's one of two schools of thought on the general nature of people: Without rules, we would all resort to theft, violence, what have you. Or, we wouldn't. Wasn't suggesting that anyone in here specifically agreed with Hobbes, what I was saying was that to get up in arms over Nathan saying it as though only religious people felt that way is inherently flawed.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #193
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Original Sin is the basis of Christianity. I'm not sure what churches you've been attending
Being a sinner or having sinned and "not being good" are not the same thing, by any stretch.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:58 PM   #194
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Being a sinner or having sinned and "not being good" are not the same thing, by any stretch.
Being a sinner is being inherently "not good". No stretch required
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:00 PM   #195
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All I was saying is that it's been a pretty standard way of thinking for a very long time, religious or not, agree or not. It's one of two schools of thought on the general nature of people: Without rules, we would all resort to theft, violence, what have you. Or, we wouldn't. Wasn't suggesting that anyone in here specifically agreed with Hobbes, what I was saying was that to get up in arms over Nathan saying it as though only religious people felt that way is inherently flawed.
I didn't say only religious people feel that way. I was merely responding to the specific case
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