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Old 02-28-2013, 12:31 AM   #136
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Danny Boy, is Down Syndrome not caused by an extra Chromosome 21, and not one which is fused?... Or is the original fused chromosome what leads to having an extra in the offspring?

edit: looked it up... The parent's 21 is fused with the 14. Which then leads to an extra 21 in the child.

apparently I need to brush up on genetics
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:59 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
Danny Boy, is Down Syndrome not caused by an extra Chromosome 21, and not one which is fused?... Or is the original fused chromosome what leads to having an extra in the offspring?

edit: looked it up... The parent's 21 is fused with the 14. Which then leads to an extra 21 in the child.

apparently I need to brush up on genetics
Most cases of Down Syndrome are from 3 separate copies of Chromosome 21. The parent passing on a fused chromosome is a rare cause.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:00 PM   #138
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Making It Illegal To Fail Science Students Who Argue Humans Co-Existed With Dinosaurs | TechCrunch

This is partly where the hostility comes from.

The world would be a better place if these people sealed themselves in oil drums and were pushed into the deepest part of the sea



I have just finished reading the posts so far in this thread.


I also read the link posted that inspired this "Pure, uneducated
ignorance, Go religion!" shout out.


From the link posted:

“I proposed this bill because there are teachers and students who may be afraid of going against what they see in their textbooks,” said Republican State Representative Gus Blackwell who sponsored the Scientific Education and Academic Freedom Act, which can now go the state legislature for a vote.

Students are not exempt from being tested on textbook material, “but no student in any public school or institution shall be penalized in any way because the student may subscribe to a particular position on scientific theories.”


What do some of you here find so terrifying about this proposal?

Why all these, it's set in stone, statements that evolution is a fact and those who disagree are just uneducated and ignorant?

Really?


Why can't a student have the freedom to disagree without being penalized?

The bill clearly states that the student is
not exempt from being tested on the
textbook material, but should simply have the
freedom to disagree without
being penalized.


“Question everything. Learn something."

~Euripides
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:43 PM   #139
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Everything is relative. There is no truth. Hey, man, it's all relative.


Everything's relative, guys.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:38 PM   #140
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Except for morals. Those are all Judeo-Christian and set in stone.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #141
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Evolution and the idea of a Creator do not have to be mutually exclusive. So because of all the rest, I don't see any kind of philosophical argument on these grounds.
I'm glad to see someone else that doesn't buy into the myth of this battle between faith and science. For most people and certainly society as a whole they function together. I don't believe in every tenet of Darwinism because I'm an Intelligent Design guy but I accept what physical evidence tells us. The Bible says God created man but gives little detail other than the fact it was after He created plants and animals. But design us He did and nothing in science threatens my belief. In fact, Christianity is alone in that it teaches that nature is not God but created apart from God and is thus logical, orderly and discoverable by reason.
Quote:
I am content to be firmly agnostic. Although not agnostic towards anything concerning man-made religion. "God" if it exists, is likely something we simply cannot understand.
But we can understand God, the Bible is His word and nature is his work.
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and then the Big Bang was proved. And speaking of why would the Big Bang (existence from a single origin) be at odds with notions of a creator? It wouldn't.
Quite right, singularity is confirmed by Christianity and science fact.
Quote:
We understand most everything outside of certain DNA and brain function (AFAIK), and we are getting there fast on those grounds. With that said, consciousness is another factor. But consciousness and the...potential 'spirit world' (if you will), wouldn't have much of anything to do with Evolution.
Actually science, or more precisely those that practice scientism or naturalism, are in quite a pickle because they aren't happy with the singularity event and its more and more apparent fine-tuning (and so propose multiverses of unlimited types and so on) and they aren't happy that Darwin's Theory of natural selection and mutations can't possible explain the evolution of the thousands of complex systems involved with life. For all we've learned just in my lifetime we have no fewer questions.

So go science and yes, go religion.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:32 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
I have just finished reading the posts so far in this thread.


I also read the link posted that inspired this "Pure, uneducated
ignorance, Go religion!" shout out.


From the link posted:

“I proposed this bill because there are teachers and students who may be afraid of going against what they see in their textbooks,” said Republican State Representative Gus Blackwell who sponsored the Scientific Education and Academic Freedom Act, which can now go the state legislature for a vote.

Students are not exempt from being tested on textbook material, “but no student in any public school or institution shall be penalized in any way because the student may subscribe to a particular position on scientific theories.”


What do some of you here find so terrifying about this proposal?

Why all these, it's set in stone, statements that evolution is a fact and those who disagree are just uneducated and ignorant?

Really?


Why can't a student have the freedom to disagree without being penalized?

The bill clearly states that the student is
not exempt from being tested on the
textbook material, but should simply have the
freedom to disagree without
being penalized.


“Question everything. Learn something."

~Euripides
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Iron Horse!

If you read through the posts again though, you'll see the concerns that were raised. Basically if you have any prior knowledge of the discovery institute and the push to get creationism taught in schools, you'll be aware of the rather sneaky tactics that are often used. The bill is worded in a way to seem innocuous. But putting those words into legislation is completely unneeded. The worry is that it's a sort of back door 'setting of the stage' (a wedge strategy, to use their phrase). It's not unprecedented.

I'll admit that my language was a bit rough. If you choose to believe in creationism over evolution, that's completely fine. It's the ones trying to push it on the schools who are being ignorant and anti-education. It's okay to believe that Evolution isn't a fact if it makes you feel better, but those that do either have never really tried to understand it or have ulterior motives. Like a student disagreeing that the Earth is round, a student refusing to acknowledge known facts should be penalized. There is a right and wrong on this issue.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:33 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Everything is relative. There is no truth. Hey, man, it's all relative.


Everything's relative, guys.
Evolution is, like, your opinion, man

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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Except for morals. Those are all Judeo-Christian and set in stone.
Oh yes, how could we forget about 'judeo-christian'?
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:49 PM   #144
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And thank you, Indy, for a similarly thoughtful reply

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I'm glad to see someone else that doesn't buy into the myth of this battle between faith and science. For most people and certainly society as a whole they function together. I don't believe in every tenet of Darwinism because I'm an Intelligent Design guy but I accept what physical evidence tells us. The Bible says God created man but gives little detail other than the fact it was after He created plants and animals. But design us He did and nothing in science threatens my belief. In fact, Christianity is alone in that it teaches that nature is not God but created apart from God and is thus logical, orderly and discoverable by reason.
Sounds like maybe you believe in the loose term "intelligent design" more in the sense that you believe there is a hand guiding the evolution. I personally see that as a bit of a "having your cake and eating it too" scenario. 150 years ago, there would be no such idea. It's only when science breaks down the pillars of religion that such concessions are made.

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But we can understand God, the Bible is His word and nature is his work.
Well, the bible is your god's words. In the history of man, belief in your god is miniscule. Replying to DM's statement with something like this is no different than replying to a Jew's theological musings with "well Jesus tells us". It's a bit of a non answer.

Quote:
Quite right, singularity is confirmed by Christianity and science fact.
Similar to the "intelligent design" concession, I'd also see this as religion co-opting science in light of overwhelming evidence. When you can no longer refute, co-opt.

Quote:

Actually science, or more precisely those that practice scientism or naturalism, are in quite a pickle because they aren't happy with the singularity event and its more and more apparent fine-tuning (and so propose multiverses of unlimited types and so on) and they aren't happy that Darwin's Theory of natural selection and mutations can't possible explain the evolution of the thousands of complex systems involved with life. For all we've learned just in my lifetime we have no fewer questions.
I'm not sure where you're getting the info from, but who isn't happy with Natural Selection? Mutations can and do explain evolution of complex systems. This is the old "irreducible complexity" argument that was shot down long ago. I can only assume that someone trotting it out hasn't bothered reading anything refuting it (I don't mean to sound rude. There's just no other way to put it). It's not even an argument anymore.

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So go science and yes, go religion.
Go science and go personal religion

Anyway, thanks for taking the time
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:43 AM   #145
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I can't say I'm a huge fan of the Bible. It's just so preachy. It feels like it was penned by Aaron Sorkin.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:20 AM   #146
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because they aren't happy with the singularity event and its more and more apparent fine-tuning (and so propose multiverses of unlimited types and so on)
Realized I hadn't addressed this bit. The hypotheses of multiverses have nothing to do with not being happy with a singularity or Big Bang. Virtually no one questions that the big bang was an actual event. Multiverses are hypothesized to describe the nature of the universe and how it could be possible for it to pop into existence from nothing. You're completely confusing different aspects of theoretical physics and cosmology. You might be interested in reading A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss if you'd like a little clarity.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:14 AM   #147
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I'm a little late to the party, but just a quick follow-up re. chromosomes: Thanks for the link, Jive Turkey! There's plenty that could be talked about there, but that would have to be saved for a science thread.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:18 AM   #148
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Everything is relative. There is no truth. Hey, man, it's all relative.

Everything's relative, guys.

Except not cultural relativity. There, it's brave to assert the fact that Americans are exceptional, and this is an eternal truth that just drives those libs ker-AZY.

But with science ... Hey, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:12 PM   #149
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but that would have to be saved for a science thread.
Start a new thread. No more general science threads
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:39 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Everything is relative. There is no truth. Hey, man, it's all relative.

Everything's relative, guys.
There is no spoon!
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