Protests all over Europe

[hiphop]

YouTube - University of Strategic Optimism

at Lloyds in London.

Comments: "Great work. Since Lloyds is mostly owned by the taxpayer now, that was your bank. Tell the merchant banker in the white shirt that he works for you."

After occupating the Tory headquarters two weeks ago, this week there were 12 occupations at lecture rooms all over England.

And the Senate House: YouTube - Student protestors occupy Senate House grounds

Italy: the Leaning Tower of Pisa and the Colosseum in Rome were briefly occupated today. Yesterday protestors walked into the Italian Senate.

STUDENTS OCCUPY LEANING TOWER OF PISA, STORM COLOSSEUM | Italy

I haven´t seen a lot of mainstream media coverage though.

 

[AliEnvy]

And it's not just in the streets.

YouTube - 'The Euro Game Is Up! Who the hell do you think you are?' - Nigel Farage MEP

 

[deep]

I have been reading about this in the news papers lately,

here in California higher ed costs have gone up recently and students are protesting. I don't know what European countries provide, but here in the U S only grades 1-12 are publicly funded. University costs are not paid by Government.

Many if not most government agencies are running deficits with these current economic times. I think occupying buildings is doing more harm than good.
These protests are counter productive.

 

[pgv]

The student protests here are pretty much nationwide and not specifically 'student protests' either. This is more a reaction against Government cuts to the Education system at large (i.e. massive cuts in the funding of state schools, cuts in University funding - namely for Arts & Humanities subjects, the cutting of 'Education Maintenance Allowance' provided for school children coming from lower income bracket homes etc.) - but was sparked in the proposals to up Student tuition fee's from being just under £4,000 p/a (which most disagree with anyway) up to £9,000 p/a.
It's a particularly contentious point seeing as the Liberal Democrats, who recently formed a coalition govt. with the Conservatives, signed pre-election pledges contrary to this. They gained a large proportion of the student vote with their 'anti-tuition fee' agenda and ALOT of people feel this sharp turn around is undemocratic, at best.
I'm a current student and in full support of the demonstrations. Our last national protest, on Wednesday, caused quite a stir. I think that this first wave of protests is a sign of things to come in the UK - this current issue is just one of many beginning to unfold.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11828882

 

[financeguy]

I fully agree that the students should not be screwed like this, but it's an awful pity the Labour government didn't balance the books properly.

The establishment, whether Labour or Conservative, doesn't like young people and/or is threatened by the prospect of young people becoming educated. Dull, compliant, servile sheep is what they want. Big Brother watching cannon fodder for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or whatever war they invent next. I honestly believe there is an organised plan to under-educate young people so that they are more malleable to the dictates of the neo-liberal elite.

If cuts need to be made, and unfortunately they do, here are a few suggestions:

Sack some of the middle aged overpaid civil servants with their gilt-edged pensions. Invite Cameron himself to take a pay cut or donate some of his enormous family wealth to the Exchequer. Withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. Cut the defense budget in half. Get rid of the security state, whose function is not to protect the British public from terrorism but rather to spy on them. Abolish all the Nu Lab quangos and sack all their staff. Evict illegal immigrants and cut off their benefits.

It's time to get angry.

 

[hiphop]

The establishment, whether Labour or Conservative, doesn't like young people and/or is threatened by the prospect of young people becoming educated. Dull, compliant, servile sheep is what they want. Big Brother watching cannon fodder for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or whatever war they invent next. I honestly believe there is an organised plan to under-educate young people so that they are more malleable to the dictates of the neo-liberal elite.

If cuts need to be made, and unfortunately they do, here are a few suggestions:

Sack some of the middle aged overpaid civil servants with their gilt-edged pensions. Invite Cameron himself to take a pay cut or donate some of his enormous family wealth to the Exchequer. Withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. Cut the defense budget in half. Get rid of the security state, whose function is not to protect the British public from terrorism but rather to spy on them. Abolish all the Nu Lab quangos and sack all their staff. Evict illegal immigrants and cut off their benefits.

It's time to get angry.

Very true. Good post.

 

[pgv]

I fully agree that the students should not be screwed like this, but it's an awful pity the Labour government didn't balance the books properly.

The establishment, whether Labour or Conservative, doesn't like young people and/or is threatened by the prospect of young people becoming educated. Dull, compliant, servile sheep is what they want. Big Brother watching cannon fodder for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or whatever war they invent next. I honestly believe there is an organised plan to under-educate young people so that they are more malleable to the dictates of the neo-liberal elite.

If cuts need to be made, and unfortunately they do, here are a few suggestions:

Sack some of the middle aged overpaid civil servants with their gilt-edged pensions. Invite Cameron himself to take a pay cut or donate some of his enormous family wealth to the Exchequer. Withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. Cut the defense budget in half. Get rid of the security state, whose function is not to protect the British public from terrorism but rather to spy on them. Abolish all the Nu Lab quangos and sack all their staff. Evict illegal immigrants and cut off their benefits.

It's time to get angry.

Good grief FinanceGuy I'm gone thirty seconds, come back and you're finally making some sense! Completely agree with all of this, couldn't have put it better myself. With only a slight disagreement on the Quango's front. And if I entirely ignore that last line too.

There's only so long before the 'for the sake of the economy' argument begins wearing a little thin, especially when those cuts are damaging something as important and symbolic as education. Which seems counter productive in the long run anyway, in terms of 'for the sake of the economy.'

It'll be interesting to see how the press and public begin reacting to the increasing protests, anyway. Either solidarity or a shift in public sympathy. I'm rather hoping not the latter.

 

[financeguy]

London's finest exposed as liars yet again, wouldn't be the first time:

video shows mounted police advancing towards the protesters at 1min 10secs Video footage has emerged showing mounted police charging a crowd of protesters during this week's tuition fees demonstrations, the day after the Metropolitan police said tactics "did not involve charging the crowd".

Tens of thousands of school and college pupils and university students demonstrated in largely peaceful protests across the country against government plans to increase tuition fees and scrap the education maintenance allowance, but there were violent scenes at the central London protests. Hundreds of protesters were corralled or "kettled" by police, and later advanced upon by mounted officers.

Many who were in the crowd complained of being charged by police on horseback.

Police have denied that mounted officers charged at protesters; however, a five-minute video posted on YouTube last night shows a number of officers on horseback advancing at speed through a crowd of people.

Jenny Love, 22, who graduated from Bath University in July, said mounted officers "charged without warning".

"When the horses charged I was fairly near the front of the demo, where we were very tightly packed in, and found myself very quickly on the floor where I assumed the foetal position and covered my head while people simply ran over me," she said.

"Thankfully another protester picked me up before I could suffer any serious damage."

Love described the charge "as pretty terrifying" and said she suffered bruising during the ordeal. "I'm very angry that the mounted police were ordered to charge on a crowd containing many people like me who were only interested in peaceful protest," she said. "Police chiefs should think themselves lucky that no one was more seriously injured."

Naomi Bain, a member of support staff at Birkbeck University, was at Whitehall on Wednesday to protest against the government cuts. She said: "We were right at the front of the crowd. I've been in a lot of protests before, so we weren't particularly scared of police shouting at us and telling us to move. We were standing our ground – until the horse charge.

"I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so frightening. I've seen police on horseback, but this was like a cavalry charge. There was a line of police on foot, and they just moved out of the way, then maybe a hundred yards down the street there was a line of police on horseback. We'd been standing firmly and just moving back slowly, but when the police on horseback charged, that was the moment when we absolutely ran."

Bain said she was standing with school and college pupils, some as young as 15, when mounted police advanced. "There were people who fell down who would have been under the horses' hooves if they hadn't been grabbed – and these were really young kids as well."

Jonathan Warren, a freelance photojournalist who was at the protest, said mounted police advanced "with no warning". "There was a line of police officers, which parted, and then the police on horseback just started charging," he said, adding that protesters were left "angry and scared".

Archie Young, 18, who was protesting with his mother, Josa, said he was left bruised following the charges. "I was at the forefront of the crowd of protesters that they charged, yes – my left boot still has a hoofprint-shaped mark on it from where I was trodden on," he said.

Yesterday a spokesman for the Metropolitan police said: "Police horses were involved in the operation, but that did not involve charging the crowd." He added: "I dare say they [officers policing the Whitehall demonstrations] were doing the movements the horses do to help control the crowd for everyone's benefit, which has been a recognised tactic for many, many years, but no, police officers charging the crowd – we would say, 'No, they did not charge the crowd.'"

However the spokesman did also say that charging was a "quite specific term". His rebuttal came after the Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, told a Metropolitan police authority meeting he had "no reference" to police officers on horseback charging at protesters.

The Guardian witnessed a charge by police mounted on about 10 horses shortly after 7pm on Wednesday near Trafalgar Square. The incident occurred when about 1,000 protesters had gathered outside the kettle to call for those inside to be released. Some began hurling missiles and surging forward.

In a co-ordinated move, the riot officers, who numbered about 100, simultaneously retreated to the sides of the street, allowing the horses to come forward approximately 100 metres. Panic spread through the crowd as protesters sprinted away. Witnesses said it was the second time police had charged with horses in the space of an hour, with unconfirmed reports of a young man having been trampled.

The police denial that officers had charged was strongly disputed by people commenting on the Guardian's coverage of the protest aftermath yesterday.

Student protests: video shows mounted police charging London crowd | UK news | guardian.co.uk

 

[A stor]

Uniiversity tuition is much cheaper in Europe than it is the U.S. How did Europe manage to keep the fees so low? Until now. 5000 dollars or eruos pick your currency, would put you through one year of Community College, not any University.

 

[Vincent Vega]

We are all Socialists, remember?
In Germany, tuition fees have been introduced only two years ago, and not in all states. The maximum a university can charge per semester is a fee of €500. Compared to even the UK, that's nothing. Still there have been lots of protests, and it goes against the promises of the government to give everyone in the country access to universities. They say, if you come from a poor family and cannot afford the €500 you will get help and all, but still it remains at least a psychological barrier for many from low income families. Further, no country has such a poor upward social mobility, that is, people who can progress from e.g. working class to getting into a leading position, or the academics, as Germany has. Your social background defines what you will be more than in any other country, due to our three-tier school system.
I come from working class parents and am now studying, which makes me a member of a declining minority. With the introduction of the €500 fee in many states, it's more than likely that the number will further decrease.

I feel inclined to agree that this development is not by accident. You need stupid masses to consume the shit that's being offered.

And the latest police action in London, as financeguy posted, well, few people who have been active politically can possibly be blind enough not to see a structure in it.

 

[financeguy]

Further, no country has such a poor upward social mobility, that is, people who can progress from e.g. working class to getting into a leading position, or the academics, as Germany has. Your social background defines what you will be more than in any other country, due to our three-tier school system.

Really? This is interesting, I did not realise that. In Ireland most members of the current Cabinet, for example, hail from comparatively ordinary lower middle class backgrounds. On the other hand, the legal profession is still dominated by people from exclusive backgrounds that attended fee paying private schools. With science/engineering and corporate life, I think it is possible to advance to high positions even if one hails from a humble background. For example, a guy I went to school with (and it was an ordinary school, certainly not exclusive) is now the head of one of the US multinational's Irish divisions, for example. Another guy who went to the same school some years before me became head of Bank of Ireland. I don't think either of these people had glittering academic careers either. I had thought that this type of social mobility was similar in Germany but seemingly not.

On the other hand, I am not saying that the degree of social mobility in Ireland is anything to be proud of. There is a huge underclass (not a nice word, but I can't think of any other) whose children stand little or no chance of progressing in life. If you had a known blackspot address (certain dodgy areas in west Dublin, for example) on your CV as your home address, even in the boom times, this would count against you no matter how good your qualifications were.

I thought that social mobility had improved in Britain in recent decades, but looking at the likes of Cameron and Clegg and London Lord Mayor Boris Johnson, it seems that the chinless upper class wonders are back in charge. It was interesting seing the top bankers testify to Parliament in the aftermath of the financial crisis in 2008, most of them had plummy Eton accents.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I just googled it for the UK and it seems, according to a OECD study, that things have changed a little for Germany since I've last done reading on the topic:
OECD: UK has worse social mobility record than other developed countries | Business | guardian.co.uk

According to that, the UK has a pretty poor record, followed by Italy and the US before France and Germany. Not surprising to me to see Canada, Norway or Denmark to do relatively well.
Over the past three decades, upward mobility in the industrialized countries generally decreased, and the US always had, contrary to its image, a relatively low rate of upward mobility.
In the German companies listed in the DAX index, over the past fifteen years only Siemens had a CEO hailing from working class. Usually, the only access to top management in listed companies, but also many mid-sized ones, is relationships and heritage.
Studies about school attendance in Germany found, that only a minority of Gymnasium students, the highest tier, has working class parents, while they are dominant in the so-called Hauptschule, the lowest tier. Your social background pretty much defines where you will go to school, and we have yet to find a way to change that in any meaningful way.
A few years ago, when the debate about "class" gained new relevance due to the labour market, health care and other reforms, the term "precarity" was made mainstream, but in essence it just meant those who lost out, ie. the underclass.
If you want to make it in politics in Germany, to this day you need to join a party around age 14, do your networking in the youth organisations, and stay in the area where you come from. Then you can slowly climb the ladder and maybe enter into national politics. It's pretty much a club of old friends in most parties, and it's not too hard to guess what most of their background is.

I'm sure examples of people in Germany who made it exist, I know there are, but they are a small minority. And the establishment is doing everything to keep it at that.

 

[yolland]

^ When I taught in France for a summer several years back, I remember being puzzled one day when a colleague passingly referred to himself as having less seniority (read: lower pay, further from opportunities for advancement) than colleagues X, Y and Z, whom I knew hadn't been teaching anywhere near as long as he had. I asked how that could be, and as I understood it, his explanation was that X, Y and Z were all graduates of the grandes écoles, therefore they'd been counted as civil servants (which all academics are in France) from the time their higher education commenced--complete with money going into their retirement accounts, a guaranteed job upon graduation, and "seniority" equivalent to however many years' higher study they'd completed. Students from the regular universités don't get those advantages. I'm sure it's not common for them to wind up in academia either, but talk about having the deck stacked against you. It's funny, because here in the US the (negative) stereotype of civil servants is, stupid backwards underachieving lowlife who couldn't have made it any other way, so he becomes my postman or whatever.

The way HK does it is even more screwed up. Only students who scored in the top 18% on their DSEs (A-Levels, basically) get admitted to the public university system, which is heavily subsidized, so tuitions are very low. Anyone else wanting a higher education has to pay full price to attend one of the private universities/colleges. You can guess who scores in the top 18%--overwhelmingly, children of upper-middle-class and upper-class families, who attended the (expensive) private academies growing up and, as secondary-school students, had (expensive) "teach-to-the-test" tutors on the side, preparing them to ace their DSEs. I found it painfully ironic to be serving as a resident "expert," brought there on government grant to advise on academic curricular and structural reform, in a system which a kid from my background almost certainly couldn't have gotten into in the first place.

Of course, here we're pretty much letting ever-decreasing subsidization achieve all this from the get-go. You still don't have to be an elite student to get into a good US public university, but it's getting harder and harder to afford it.

 

[Vincent Vega]

The elite in France is a closed society. The politicians all have attended the écoles, many have been classmates there before going into politics and now it's a little bit like a club of old school friends and other members of the same institutions. As far as I know it's the same for upper management, and it certainly is the case for all public companies, such as railroads.
They know each other since childhood and it's little surprising that they're working together so well.

 

[financeguy]

George Carlin.

YouTube - George Carlin on American Owners and Education

 

[financeguy]

The student protests here are pretty much nationwide and not specifically 'student protests' either. This is more a reaction against Government cuts to the Education system at large (i.e. massive cuts in the funding of state schools, cuts in University funding - namely for Arts & Humanities subjects, the cutting of 'Education Maintenance Allowance' provided for school children coming from lower income bracket homes etc.) - but was sparked in the proposals to up Student tuition fee's from being just under £4,000 p/a (which most disagree with anyway) up to £9,000 p/a.
It's a particularly contentious point seeing as the Liberal Democrats, who recently formed a coalition govt. with the Conservatives, signed pre-election pledges contrary to this. They gained a large proportion of the student vote with their 'anti-tuition fee' agenda and ALOT of people feel this sharp turn around is undemocratic, at best.
I'm a current student and in full support of the demonstrations. Our last national protest, on Wednesday, caused quite a stir. I think that this first wave of protests is a sign of things to come in the UK - this current issue is just one of many beginning to unfold.

BBC News - Student tuition fees protests across the UK

are you hungry?
are you sick?
are you begging for a break?

are you sweet?
are you fresh?
are you strung up by the wrists?

we want the young blood

are you fracturing?
are you torn at the seams?
would you do anything?
flea-bitten? motheaten?

we suck young blood
we suck young blood

won't let the creeping ivy
won't let the nervous bury me
our veins are thin
our rivers poisoned

we want the sweet meats
we want the young blood

(c) Radiohead 2003

 

[A stor]

We are all Socialists, remember?
In Germany, tuition fees have been introduced only two years ago, and not in all states. The maximum a university can charge per semester is a fee of €500. Compared to even the UK, that's nothing. Still there have been lots of protests, and it goes against the promises of the government to give everyone in the country access to universities. They say, if you come from a poor family and cannot afford the €500 you will get help and all, but still it remains at least a psychological barrier for many from low income families. Further, no country has such a poor upward social mobility, that is, people who can progress from e.g. working class to getting into a leading position, or the academics, as Germany has. Your social background defines what you will be more than in any other country, due to our three-tier school system.
I come from working class parents and am now studying, which makes me a member of a declining minority. With the introduction of the €500 fee in many states, it's more than likely that the number will further decrease.

I feel inclined to agree that this development is not by accident. You need stupid masses to consume the shit that's being offered.

And the latest police action in London, as financeguy posted, well, few people who have been active politically can possibly be blind enough not to see a structure in it.

Understood. But, college tuition fees are very expensive in the U.S. There is financial aid for those who qualify, but most students still have to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans. Taking them years to pay it back, if at all. It is distressing and hopefully they can even find a job in their chosen field.

Many young people are foregoing the traditional four year degree and only going to schools which can train them in a shorter period of time. Medical and Technical fields are pretty open. These jobs are easier to get and cost less for the training.

 

[pgv]

I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.

 

[deep]

will you go back?

what if they hold you 6 hours next time?

 

[pgv]

I will go back, only next time I'll be less ill prepared! I'm not so sure about others though.

 

[deep]

Be careful and stay safe.

I don't know what the answers are.
I am just over here in California reading my daily newspaper. L A Times.

I know your reality is completely different than the England you and your parents were raised in.

I read that in Ireland their deficit is 32% of their GNP.
If I were 20 I would not want the cutbacks to impact my quality of life, and determine my future opportunities.
But, also in 15 years I would be 35, full swing in my career, and part of the working class responsible for paying off these growing deficits. And these added deficits would leave less resources for my children.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Understood. But, college tuition fees are very expensive in the U.S. There is financial aid for those who qualify, but most students still have to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans. Taking them years to pay it back, if at all. It is distressing and hopefully they can even find a job in their chosen field.

Many young people are foregoing the traditional four year degree and only going to schools which can train them in a shorter period of time. Medical and Technical fields are pretty open. These jobs are easier to get and cost less for the training.

What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.

Quite a different mentality, and it's little wonder that the credit card debt is still seen as one of the greatest dangers to the economy.

Those shorter term programs, do they teach the same in less time, or are they different from four year studies altogether? Seeing how busy I was just doing a few classes in the US system, I cannot imagine how to cope if the same workload were to be dealt with in half the time.

I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.

If temperatures in England are as they are here, being confined outside for three hours is dangerous enough. I'm sure there is enough young people who in future will think twice before going out for a protest, however harmless it may seem, in future. I agree, it's all about detering people.

 

[financeguy]

I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.

Sorry to hear this, but unfortunately I am not surprised. It is in the nature of the New World Order police state to bully women and children.

 

[financeguy]

What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.

Quite a different mentality, and it's little wonder that the credit card debt is still seen as one of the greatest dangers to the economy.

It's interesting to me that Ireland went from the former to the latter in the space of no more than a decade. When I went to university in the early 1990s, very, very few of the students had cars, probably no more than two or three in my class of three hundred. Even the students from relatively privileged backgrounds whose parents could have afforded to buy them cars, chose not to for fear of spoiling them. I can remember one guy whose dad was a multi-millionaire but he travelled to classes by bicycle like everyone else. Fast forward ten years and the culture had changed, these were the times of easy credit, and it became much more akin to the US system.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Germans are notoriously "debt-averse" and consuming has never been a strong point. To the contrary, Germans consume relatively little, which in times when our exports break down is of concern to many economists. Buying on credit and incurring debt is something only a few are ready to do, and even those "easy credit" schemes of the recent years couldn't change all that much, luckily.
When I went to school, and also here at university, I know a number of students who own a car. But most of them paid cash, and work to afford the car and its accompanying costs. If they aren't from well-off backgrounds, their cars tend to be very old and cheap. Thanks to our TUV system, which is a mandatory road-worthy test for cars, they are not unsafe, just old and cheap. But those students are comprising a minority.
The number of young people owning a car, before being in an apprenticeship or while studying, is naturally a little higher in the country-side, where a car is more of a necessity, but in cities it's really a luxury and hardly gives you any benefit over public transportation. Especially since every student has a semester ticket for public transportation.
Even in recent years this hasn't changed that much in Germany, despite the credit businesses not shying away from any effort to make us fall for their bad deals.

 

[yolland]

The Guardian, Dec. 9

Protesters clashed with police in London tonight after the coalition won the vote to increase tuition fees for students in England to up to £9,000 per year. The plans faced bitter criticism not only from Labour MPs but from Lib Dem and Tory backbenchers, but the move was carried by 323 votes to 302 in what has proved to be the most testing parliamentary vote to date for the coalition government.

...Police entered Parliament Square tonight to stop protesting students from vandalising and damaging the Treasury. A number of students started using concrete blocks and metal poles to smash windows of the building on Great George Street while being contained inside the Square. Officers with riot shields and helmets charged at the protesters as tensions ran high after news of the government's victory in the vote spread through the crowd. Students had already sprayed graffiti onto the building and continued to vent their anger into the evening.

...[Lib Dem business secretary Vince] Cable insisted tonight that the party would "go forward" and described the party's internal disagreement on the issue as having been "respectful" at all times. Speaking after the vote, Cable said: "We have taken different views on this issue, but the party remains united. We will go forward. We are committed to making the coalition government work and I feel positive. It's been a difficult day, and a difficult decision. The whole point of being in government is that you have to make tough choices." He admitted there was a "big job to be done" in getting the message out that the government had to put universities on a sound financial footing, and that it had been done in a way that was fair. "I think people when they reflect on the detail of what we have done will realise that we have produced a package in very difficult circumstances when we had to make cuts which is more progressive and it will help low income graduates, and it will help part-timers and it's very much in the long term interest of universities."

Ed Milband, the Labour party leader, said tonight's vote was "disappointing" for young people in the country. Politics was at an "even lower ebb" as a result of tonight's vote, he said. "What really concerns me is the impact this will have on social mobility and people getting on in our society," said Miliband, who voted that his party would campaign for "educational opportunity".

Aaron Porter, president of the National Union of Students, said the union had won over public opinion. The measure was passed "only because MPs have broken their promises", he said. "We are incredibly disappointed and angry with the politicians who have let us down so badly. They have voted for a policy they know is unfair, unnecessary and wrong."

...Earlier in the afternoon, the shadow business secretary, John Denham, warned Lib Dems that backing for the proposals would forfeit the party's right to call themselves "a progressive party". He said the plans would see English students facing higher fees than students in any other public universities in the developed world. All 57 Lib Dem MPs said before the election that they would oppose any rise in tuition fees although the coalition deal included an agreement to allow them to abstain in any vote on the issue.

...But in a rowdy Commons atmosphere, Labour MPs, as well as some Lib Dems and Conservatives, challenged claims that the rise was progressive for students.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

A number of students started using concrete blocks and metal poles to smash windows of the building on Great George Street while being contained inside the Square.

I certainly understand and sympathize with the students' anger but this probably isn't going to help people take their point seriously. It'll make them listen, sure, but for all the wrong reasons.

To those who are protesting peacefully, though, keep on fighting the good fight . Sucks that you get detained for it, but don't let that deter you. You have a valid argument, you deserve to have your voices heard as much as anyone else.

What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.

Man, I WISH I could have the kind of life the people you met in Montana had (to a point. I don't need a super-expensive flashy car, but I would love to be able to pay to go to university and travel when and where I could and have enough money for my family to not have to worry about not having enough for necessities or luxuries).

I have one credit card, and I am behind on payments on it-it's actually in collections now 'cause I haven't used it in a long time and haven't had the means to pay it off in recent times, but what I owe is very small stuff compared to what other people rack up (I only used it for minor things, anyway-concert tickets, something for my sister, and a couple things off Amazon). The only reason I even got a credit card to begin with was because there are some things out there that will only accept credit cards as a means of payment (or at least, you can pay for it quicker, it's a hassle to send money orders out all the time through the mail, especially if you aren't sure it'll even always get to its destination).

But I'd really like to not have one at all. I don't like credit cards. I much prefer cash-I can SEE it, I can count it all out and make sure all the money is there, I can look back at it and see if I'm exact or over or short some money. And I like the idea of just paying for something right then and there and being done with it and not having to worry about interest rates or monthly payments or any of that sort of thing. Unfortunately, nowadays you can't always get by solely on that. But when I do get back on track credit-wise, I'm going to be very selective with what I use it for, so I don't have to worry about credit carding myself into massive debt.

Oddly enough, I am of heavily German descent as well .

Those shorter term programs, do they teach the same in less time, or are they different from four year studies altogether? Seeing how busy I was just doing a few classes in the US system, I cannot imagine how to cope if the same workload were to be dealt with in half the time.

From my understanding, it seems they teach the same stuff in less time. Sometimes you can take two-year studies and then go on to four-year ones, so in that case, there may be a bit of a difference, they may not try and cram everything in since you will be continuing your education beyond the two years, but otherwise, yeah, I think it's more of a cramming thing.

The problem I noticed when I took the brief bit of community college I did was that we were pretty much rehashing the stuff we learned in high school. I know some people have been out of school for a long time and sometimes need to learn the information again, and there's nothing wrong with rehashing certain material, but at the same time, it does seem like it takes away from the time you could be spending moving forward with new education of the career/subjects you want to delve deeper into.

(As an aside, VincentVega, when were you in Montana? 'Cause when I was going to college, it was in Wyoming, and I did that back in 2005, 2006)

Angela

 

[Liesje]

Germans are notoriously "debt-averse" and consuming has never been a strong point. To the contrary, Germans consume relatively little, which in times when our exports break down is of concern to many economists. Buying on credit and incurring debt is something only a few are ready to do, and even those "easy credit" schemes of the recent years couldn't change all that much, luckily.
When I went to school, and also here at university, I know a number of students who own a car. But most of them paid cash, and work to afford the car and its accompanying costs. If they aren't from well-off backgrounds, their cars tend to be very old and cheap. Thanks to our TUV system, which is a mandatory road-worthy test for cars, they are not unsafe, just old and cheap. But those students are comprising a minority.

But, at the same time, not having to pay or paying so very little for education allows one to be "debt-averse" and save to pay cash for things like cars. There definitely is some amount of opportunity involved, even here in the US among my peers when people brag about having no debt it's usually because their parents paid for their college and helped them with their first home. We pay a car loan on our van and the original balance of the loan was only a fraction of one year's cost of attending college for either of us. We could live in a mansion and travel the world on what we pay towards student loans each month. I am not complaining about it b/c that was the choice we made to get the education we wanted, but student loans are absolutely our top monthly expense and will be for quite some time. The same could be said of my parents and what they paid for my K-12 education. Sure they would not have had a mortgage or had to take a few years to pay off a vehicle if they weren't paying $7k per kid, per year on blue collar salaries. Believe me, I do not enjoy debt in any form nor would I ever choose it but these days, very few people can work enough hours during college making enough to pay for it.

If I didn't have student loans I would never have to buy on credit and incur debt. As it is I do not have a credit card and besides my student loans (which I've never once been late on) our only other debt is the auto loan. I could pay the auto loan in full in a few months without the student loans and I could afford a home mortgage double my current rent.

 

[Screwtape2]

This is a very bad day for the UK. I know there must be heavy sacrifices but at what point do you sacrifice too much? As an outside observer I am both puzzled and disturbed by what I am seeing. Following the coverage of all this and especially watching the parliament proceedings on the BBC website, this whole thing felt out of control or to use an analogy like a runaway train. When you have protests of young people in the thousands across the UK who are terrified about their future, why push ahead? When you have Conservative and Lib Dem MP’s pleading to hold off on voting for this, why push ahead? Unfortunately, there were not enough voices of reason in parliament today.

To me the government is missing the bigger picture here. Addressing the budget deficit is only half the issue, with the other half being a matter of containment. The financial problems have to be contained to the short term and not have long lasting effects on Britain in decades going forward. This only spreads the problem through the youth of the country. The students in the university halls of the UK are ultimately the most valuable resource that the country has. Why hurt the future of these students and the future of the country as a whole? Like I said, I’m puzzled.

Now as for the protests, I’m with Moonlit Angel on supporting the peaceful protestors and hoping that they keep on the good fight. The violence though (the percentage of which is committed by actual students is near impossible to gage) has to stop. The students have the sympathy now but when a duke’s passing car is attacked, buildings damaged, several injuries and general mayhem is committed that is the stuff that makes the news. What people need to see when they watch the news in the UK and around the world are the sit-ins, peaceful marches and creative protests like one I read about with students carrying a coffin down the city streets. That will get you attention without hurting the cause. The peaceful protestors should be praised for their relentless determination to fight for what they believe in despite the police and the weather. If I were a citizen there I would find enormous pride knowing that this generation cares that much. Will and sheer stubbornness might be the best qualities of the British people and UK students have shown those qualities. It is hard not to admire but anyways I am rambling now. I just wanted share though thoughts.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.

if it isn't it SHOULD Be!!!

Please be more prepared/ or get out at the 1st sign of any mounted police.

I & a friend made sure got far away once the cops waded in on horse back 2nd gulf pre-war match in the USA.

FG--- they've been partly dumbing down American students esp but not limited to African-Americans and Latinos, but poorer whites as well...... going on since Reagan's time.

They dumped Civics classes maybe around Reagan's time. And as soon there's some budget troubles there goes the arts & music as well.
Much of the textbooks come out of texas now and some one close with or part of the Bush family runs this Text book publisher and I' ve heard they are slanting the books or omitting stuff that was common beliefs or knowledge in the recent past.