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Old 11-29-2010, 07:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by partygirlvox View Post
The student protests here are pretty much nationwide and not specifically 'student protests' either. This is more a reaction against Government cuts to the Education system at large (i.e. massive cuts in the funding of state schools, cuts in University funding - namely for Arts & Humanities subjects, the cutting of 'Education Maintenance Allowance' provided for school children coming from lower income bracket homes etc.) - but was sparked in the proposals to up Student tuition fee's from being just under £4,000 p/a (which most disagree with anyway) up to £9,000 p/a.
It's a particularly contentious point seeing as the Liberal Democrats, who recently formed a coalition govt. with the Conservatives, signed pre-election pledges contrary to this. They gained a large proportion of the student vote with their 'anti-tuition fee' agenda and ALOT of people feel this sharp turn around is undemocratic, at best.
I'm a current student and in full support of the demonstrations. Our last national protest, on Wednesday, caused quite a stir. I think that this first wave of protests is a sign of things to come in the UK - this current issue is just one of many beginning to unfold.

BBC News - Student tuition fees protests across the UK
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:35 AM   #17
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We are all Socialists, remember?
In Germany, tuition fees have been introduced only two years ago, and not in all states. The maximum a university can charge per semester is a fee of €500. Compared to even the UK, that's nothing. Still there have been lots of protests, and it goes against the promises of the government to give everyone in the country access to universities. They say, if you come from a poor family and cannot afford the €500 you will get help and all, but still it remains at least a psychological barrier for many from low income families. Further, no country has such a poor upward social mobility, that is, people who can progress from e.g. working class to getting into a leading position, or the academics, as Germany has. Your social background defines what you will be more than in any other country, due to our three-tier school system.
I come from working class parents and am now studying, which makes me a member of a declining minority. With the introduction of the €500 fee in many states, it's more than likely that the number will further decrease.

I feel inclined to agree that this development is not by accident. You need stupid masses to consume the shit that's being offered.

And the latest police action in London, as financeguy posted, well, few people who have been active politically can possibly be blind enough not to see a structure in it.

Understood. But, college tuition fees are very expensive in the U.S. There is financial aid for those who qualify, but most students still have to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans. Taking them years to pay it back, if at all. It is distressing and hopefully they can even find a job in their chosen field.

Many young people are foregoing the traditional four year degree and only going to schools which can train them in a shorter period of time. Medical and Technical fields are pretty open. These jobs are easier to get and cost less for the training.
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:30 PM   #18
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I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:42 PM   #19
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will you go back?

what if they hold you 6 hours next time?
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:45 PM   #20
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I will go back, only next time I'll be less ill prepared! I'm not so sure about others though.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:30 PM   #21
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Be careful and stay safe.

I don't know what the answers are.
I am just over here in California reading my daily newspaper. L A Times.

I know your reality is completely different than the England you and your parents were raised in.

I read that in Ireland their deficit is 32% of their GNP.
If I were 20 I would not want the cutbacks to impact my quality of life, and determine my future opportunities.
But, also in 15 years I would be 35, full swing in my career, and part of the working class responsible for paying off these growing deficits. And these added deficits would leave less resources for my children.
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:17 PM   #22
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Understood. But, college tuition fees are very expensive in the U.S. There is financial aid for those who qualify, but most students still have to take out tens of thousands of dollars in loans. Taking them years to pay it back, if at all. It is distressing and hopefully they can even find a job in their chosen field.

Many young people are foregoing the traditional four year degree and only going to schools which can train them in a shorter period of time. Medical and Technical fields are pretty open. These jobs are easier to get and cost less for the training.
What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.

Quite a different mentality, and it's little wonder that the credit card debt is still seen as one of the greatest dangers to the economy.

Those shorter term programs, do they teach the same in less time, or are they different from four year studies altogether? Seeing how busy I was just doing a few classes in the US system, I cannot imagine how to cope if the same workload were to be dealt with in half the time.

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I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.
If temperatures in England are as they are here, being confined outside for three hours is dangerous enough. I'm sure there is enough young people who in future will think twice before going out for a protest, however harmless it may seem, in future. I agree, it's all about detering people.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by partygirlvox View Post
I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.
Sorry to hear this, but unfortunately I am not surprised. It is in the nature of the New World Order police state to bully women and children.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:10 PM   #24
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What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.

Quite a different mentality, and it's little wonder that the credit card debt is still seen as one of the greatest dangers to the economy.
It's interesting to me that Ireland went from the former to the latter in the space of no more than a decade. When I went to university in the early 1990s, very, very few of the students had cars, probably no more than two or three in my class of three hundred. Even the students from relatively privileged backgrounds whose parents could have afforded to buy them cars, chose not to for fear of spoiling them. I can remember one guy whose dad was a multi-millionaire but he travelled to classes by bicycle like everyone else. Fast forward ten years and the culture had changed, these were the times of easy credit, and it became much more akin to the US system.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:25 PM   #25
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Germans are notoriously "debt-averse" and consuming has never been a strong point. To the contrary, Germans consume relatively little, which in times when our exports break down is of concern to many economists. Buying on credit and incurring debt is something only a few are ready to do, and even those "easy credit" schemes of the recent years couldn't change all that much, luckily.
When I went to school, and also here at university, I know a number of students who own a car. But most of them paid cash, and work to afford the car and its accompanying costs. If they aren't from well-off backgrounds, their cars tend to be very old and cheap. Thanks to our TUV system, which is a mandatory road-worthy test for cars, they are not unsafe, just old and cheap. But those students are comprising a minority.
The number of young people owning a car, before being in an apprenticeship or while studying, is naturally a little higher in the country-side, where a car is more of a necessity, but in cities it's really a luxury and hardly gives you any benefit over public transportation. Especially since every student has a semester ticket for public transportation.
Even in recent years this hasn't changed that much in Germany, despite the credit businesses not shying away from any effort to make us fall for their bad deals.
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:19 PM   #26
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The Guardian, Dec. 9
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Protesters clashed with police in London tonight after the coalition won the vote to increase tuition fees for students in England to up to £9,000 per year. The plans faced bitter criticism not only from Labour MPs but from Lib Dem and Tory backbenchers, but the move was carried by 323 votes to 302 in what has proved to be the most testing parliamentary vote to date for the coalition government.

...Police entered Parliament Square tonight to stop protesting students from vandalising and damaging the Treasury. A number of students started using concrete blocks and metal poles to smash windows of the building on Great George Street while being contained inside the Square. Officers with riot shields and helmets charged at the protesters as tensions ran high after news of the government's victory in the vote spread through the crowd. Students had already sprayed graffiti onto the building and continued to vent their anger into the evening.

...[Lib Dem business secretary Vince] Cable insisted tonight that the party would "go forward" and described the party's internal disagreement on the issue as having been "respectful" at all times. Speaking after the vote, Cable said: "We have taken different views on this issue, but the party remains united. We will go forward. We are committed to making the coalition government work and I feel positive. It's been a difficult day, and a difficult decision. The whole point of being in government is that you have to make tough choices." He admitted there was a "big job to be done" in getting the message out that the government had to put universities on a sound financial footing, and that it had been done in a way that was fair. "I think people when they reflect on the detail of what we have done will realise that we have produced a package in very difficult circumstances when we had to make cuts which is more progressive and it will help low income graduates, and it will help part-timers and it's very much in the long term interest of universities."

Ed Milband, the Labour party leader, said tonight's vote was "disappointing" for young people in the country. Politics was at an "even lower ebb" as a result of tonight's vote, he said. "What really concerns me is the impact this will have on social mobility and people getting on in our society," said Miliband, who voted that his party would campaign for "educational opportunity".

Aaron Porter, president of the National Union of Students, said the union had won over public opinion. The measure was passed "only because MPs have broken their promises", he said. "We are incredibly disappointed and angry with the politicians who have let us down so badly. They have voted for a policy they know is unfair, unnecessary and wrong."

...Earlier in the afternoon, the shadow business secretary, John Denham, warned Lib Dems that backing for the proposals would forfeit the party's right to call themselves "a progressive party". He said the plans would see English students facing higher fees than students in any other public universities in the developed world. All 57 Lib Dem MPs said before the election that they would oppose any rise in tuition fees although the coalition deal included an agreement to allow them to abstain in any vote on the issue.

...But in a rowdy Commons atmosphere, Labour MPs, as well as some Lib Dems and Conservatives, challenged claims that the rise was progressive for students.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:08 PM   #27
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A number of students started using concrete blocks and metal poles to smash windows of the building on Great George Street while being contained inside the Square.
I certainly understand and sympathize with the students' anger but this probably isn't going to help people take their point seriously. It'll make them listen, sure, but for all the wrong reasons.

To those who are protesting peacefully, though, keep on fighting the good fight . Sucks that you get detained for it, but don't let that deter you. You have a valid argument, you deserve to have your voices heard as much as anyone else.

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What I found interesting seeing in the US was the different attitude towards debt. I hardly know any students here in Germany taking out loans or going into debt with their credit cards (if they even own one) for consumables, travels etc. If they take out a loan, it's for costs of living, or because they don't qualify for the national student support. But preferably, they go working. Debt is something you might incur for a car, or a house, but not for anything else. And if you are in debt, you try not to accumulate more (of course, this is more a generalisation, as exceptions always prove the rule).

The students I met in Montana have often been different. Hardly anyone drove an old car, most had new pick-ups, hummers and other really expensive cars. They paid huge sums for each semester of university. They travelled whenever they could. They purchased whatever they liked, whenever they liked. Not having enough money didn't seem a problem, as the credit card always paid. It was quite frightening to see how deep into debt some went, yet they planned overseas trips or getting a driver's license for motorbikes etc.
Man, I WISH I could have the kind of life the people you met in Montana had (to a point. I don't need a super-expensive flashy car, but I would love to be able to pay to go to university and travel when and where I could and have enough money for my family to not have to worry about not having enough for necessities or luxuries).

I have one credit card, and I am behind on payments on it-it's actually in collections now 'cause I haven't used it in a long time and haven't had the means to pay it off in recent times, but what I owe is very small stuff compared to what other people rack up (I only used it for minor things, anyway-concert tickets, something for my sister, and a couple things off Amazon). The only reason I even got a credit card to begin with was because there are some things out there that will only accept credit cards as a means of payment (or at least, you can pay for it quicker, it's a hassle to send money orders out all the time through the mail, especially if you aren't sure it'll even always get to its destination).

But I'd really like to not have one at all. I don't like credit cards. I much prefer cash-I can SEE it, I can count it all out and make sure all the money is there, I can look back at it and see if I'm exact or over or short some money. And I like the idea of just paying for something right then and there and being done with it and not having to worry about interest rates or monthly payments or any of that sort of thing. Unfortunately, nowadays you can't always get by solely on that. But when I do get back on track credit-wise, I'm going to be very selective with what I use it for, so I don't have to worry about credit carding myself into massive debt.

Oddly enough, I am of heavily German descent as well .


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Those shorter term programs, do they teach the same in less time, or are they different from four year studies altogether? Seeing how busy I was just doing a few classes in the US system, I cannot imagine how to cope if the same workload were to be dealt with in half the time.
From my understanding, it seems they teach the same stuff in less time. Sometimes you can take two-year studies and then go on to four-year ones, so in that case, there may be a bit of a difference, they may not try and cram everything in since you will be continuing your education beyond the two years, but otherwise, yeah, I think it's more of a cramming thing.

The problem I noticed when I took the brief bit of community college I did was that we were pretty much rehashing the stuff we learned in high school. I know some people have been out of school for a long time and sometimes need to learn the information again, and there's nothing wrong with rehashing certain material, but at the same time, it does seem like it takes away from the time you could be spending moving forward with new education of the career/subjects you want to delve deeper into.

(As an aside, VincentVega, when were you in Montana? 'Cause when I was going to college, it was in Wyoming, and I did that back in 2005, 2006)

Angela
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:48 PM   #28
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Germans are notoriously "debt-averse" and consuming has never been a strong point. To the contrary, Germans consume relatively little, which in times when our exports break down is of concern to many economists. Buying on credit and incurring debt is something only a few are ready to do, and even those "easy credit" schemes of the recent years couldn't change all that much, luckily.
When I went to school, and also here at university, I know a number of students who own a car. But most of them paid cash, and work to afford the car and its accompanying costs. If they aren't from well-off backgrounds, their cars tend to be very old and cheap. Thanks to our TUV system, which is a mandatory road-worthy test for cars, they are not unsafe, just old and cheap. But those students are comprising a minority.
But, at the same time, not having to pay or paying so very little for education allows one to be "debt-averse" and save to pay cash for things like cars. There definitely is some amount of opportunity involved, even here in the US among my peers when people brag about having no debt it's usually because their parents paid for their college and helped them with their first home. We pay a car loan on our van and the original balance of the loan was only a fraction of one year's cost of attending college for either of us. We could live in a mansion and travel the world on what we pay towards student loans each month. I am not complaining about it b/c that was the choice we made to get the education we wanted, but student loans are absolutely our top monthly expense and will be for quite some time. The same could be said of my parents and what they paid for my K-12 education. Sure they would not have had a mortgage or had to take a few years to pay off a vehicle if they weren't paying $7k per kid, per year on blue collar salaries. Believe me, I do not enjoy debt in any form nor would I ever choose it but these days, very few people can work enough hours during college making enough to pay for it.

If I didn't have student loans I would never have to buy on credit and incur debt. As it is I do not have a credit card and besides my student loans (which I've never once been late on) our only other debt is the auto loan. I could pay the auto loan in full in a few months without the student loans and I could afford a home mortgage double my current rent.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:54 PM   #29
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This is a very bad day for the UK. I know there must be heavy sacrifices but at what point do you sacrifice too much? As an outside observer I am both puzzled and disturbed by what I am seeing. Following the coverage of all this and especially watching the parliament proceedings on the BBC website, this whole thing felt out of control or to use an analogy like a runaway train. When you have protests of young people in the thousands across the UK who are terrified about their future, why push ahead? When you have Conservative and Lib Dem MP’s pleading to hold off on voting for this, why push ahead? Unfortunately, there were not enough voices of reason in parliament today.

To me the government is missing the bigger picture here. Addressing the budget deficit is only half the issue, with the other half being a matter of containment. The financial problems have to be contained to the short term and not have long lasting effects on Britain in decades going forward. This only spreads the problem through the youth of the country. The students in the university halls of the UK are ultimately the most valuable resource that the country has. Why hurt the future of these students and the future of the country as a whole? Like I said, I’m puzzled.

Now as for the protests, I’m with Moonlit Angel on supporting the peaceful protestors and hoping that they keep on the good fight. The violence though (the percentage of which is committed by actual students is near impossible to gage) has to stop. The students have the sympathy now but when a duke’s passing car is attacked, buildings damaged, several injuries and general mayhem is committed that is the stuff that makes the news. What people need to see when they watch the news in the UK and around the world are the sit-ins, peaceful marches and creative protests like one I read about with students carrying a coffin down the city streets. That will get you attention without hurting the cause. The peaceful protestors should be praised for their relentless determination to fight for what they believe in despite the police and the weather. If I were a citizen there I would find enormous pride knowing that this generation cares that much. Will and sheer stubbornness might be the best qualities of the British people and UK students have shown those qualities. It is hard not to admire but anyways I am rambling now. I just wanted share though thoughts.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:03 PM   #30
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I have just been released from a three hour kettle - good god, how is such a thing legal in this day and age? Peaceful protestors (and I actually mean that) consisting of school children and accidental passers by, enclosed in a freezing cold street for THREE hours for the hefty crime of waving placards. Despicable, another desperate attempt to lower moral and deter further protests.


if it isn't it SHOULD Be!!!

Please be more prepared/ or get out at the 1st sign of any mounted police.

I & a friend made sure got far away once the cops waded in on horse back 2nd gulf pre-war match in the USA.

FG--- they've been partly dumbing down American students esp but not limited to African-Americans and Latinos, but poorer whites as well...... going on since Reagan's time.

They dumped Civics classes maybe around Reagan's time. And as soon there's some budget troubles there goes the arts & music as well.
Much of the textbooks come out of texas now and some one close with or part of the Bush family runs this Text book publisher and I' ve heard they are slanting the books or omitting stuff that was common beliefs or knowledge in the recent past.
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