Proposition 8 discussion continued

[BoMac]

?

I'm not opposed to GCUs.

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Separate but equal.

GCU's are not even recognized nationally—as marriage is with all its inherent benefits and privileges—and just by virtue of that fact, you're denying people the same rights that you enjoy.

 

[martha]

I'm not opposed to GCUs.

You're just so damn generous.

 

[diamond]

i know.

and while marriages are a privilege -i think gcus should be aknowledged the same way.

i think the movement should fight to enact and pass federal legislation to mirror similar benefits as married cpls.

good luck in your fight it will be an up hill battle but will be worth it once/if you win-instead of acting like you're entitled to it.

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[MrsSpringsteen]

Were you "entitled to it"?

 

[diamond]

I qualified by virtue of my sexual orientation, behavior, and gender that God gave to me.

If I were or I chose to be Gay I would be happy to be in a union w a Gay partner and not foam at the out towards ppl who were different from me.

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[MrsSpringsteen]

I qualified by virtue of my sexual orientation, behavior, and gender that God gave to me.

If I were or I chose to be Gay I would be happy to be in a union w a Gay partner and not foam at the out towards ppl who were different from me.

God gave you your orientation but gay people choose to be gay? So it's selective?

I assume you meant "foam at the mouth"? You're kidding, right? I think their anger is justified, and much of it might come from hurt as well. They are the ones who are being discriminated against because they're "different".

Would you be happy with just a civil union with your wife?

 

[diamond]

Would you be happy with just a civil union with your wife?

If I were a "She" sure -if I didn't believe in God.
If I believed in God and were femaale and Gay I would get a unionized in a church by a minister who we were both comfortable with.

However:

Our respective genders make that impossible, at the very least we would have the legal privlege of having a civil marriage if we wanted that because of our differing genders.

But we got married by a minister because of our differing sexes, our sexual orientation and belief in God.

It's not rocket science no matter how many tantrums or obfucastions a movement engages in.

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[MrsSpringsteen]

If I were a "She" sure -if I didn't believe in God.
If I believed in God and were femaale and Gay I would get a unionized in a church by a minister who we were both comfortable with.

However:

Our respective genders make that impossible, at the very least we would have the legal privlege of having a civil marriage if we wanted that because of our differing genders.

But we got married by a minister because of our differing sexes, our sexual orientation and belief in God.

It's not rocket science no matter how many tantrums or obfucastions a movement engages in.

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It's not "rocket science" to you because of your religious beliefs-but not everyone has the same beliefs that you do. Yet they still are committed just like you are and want to be married, just like you do. And you know what, many of them DO believe in God as well, just like you do. Their belief in God is equal to yours too. No belief in God is superior to anyone else's.

 

[martha]

and while marriages are a privilege

I'm coming over to your side, Big D.

The back of the bus should be good enough for those uppity queers. I mean, really, what else do they want? The disgusting things they do used to be illegal, so you'd think they'd be happy with the second-class status people like us have been generous enough to give them.

We know what God wants more than anyone else. They should just shut up and be happy.

 

[diamond]

I'm coming over to your side, Big D.

:

We know what God wants more than anyone else. They should just shut up and be happy.

Equating the gay movement to discrimination against minorities in the 1950s is disingenous.

It is also offensive to most African Americans who voted against what you voted for.

70% of voting Blacks in Calif disagree w the majority of FYM posters in this thread and many here additionally insult them by calling them ignorant or "under-educated".

Futhur echos of liberal elitism.

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[diamond]

It's not "rocket science" to you because of your religious beliefs-but not everyone has the same beliefs that you do. QUOTE]

My beliefs in the definition of marriage are with the majority of most Americans, thank you very much.

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[martha]

disingenous.

offensive
insult

It's funny when you use words like this to bolster your arguments.

 

[martha]

My beliefs in the definition of marriage are with the majority of most Americans, thank you very much.

It's true!


A majority of Americans were just fine with laws that kept women from voting!

 

[martha]

70% of voting Blacks in Calif disagree w the majority of FYM posters in this thread

Most whites agreed that restrictive covenants were just fine.

We should have kept them because a majority of people voted for the proposition.

 

[diamond]

It's true!


A majority of Americans were just fine with laws that kept women from voting!

And ppl of my Faith help change it-so get busy.

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[martha]

.

 

[martha]

And ppl of my Faith help change it-so get busy.

Yeah. Your faith is all about equality for women. We both know what "get busy" meant back then.

 

[diamond]

Most whites agreed that restrictive covenants were just fine.

:

That's a mistaken prejudiced notion on your part and has little to do with the discussion at hand..

We knew that there was a time coming when all men would have the fullness of blessings.

When we got Word, the wait was over-and ppl of nations in our Faith rejoiced.

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[MrsSpringsteen]

My beliefs in the definition of marriage are with the majority of most Americans, thank you very much.

Yes that's true, but it is changing-whether you like it or not it is. The majority of most Americans used to believe in the inferiority of women and African Americans too (and some used religious reasons for that belief). Some still believe in such things.. So maybe we should have continued along that path as well.

The definition of marriage has changed in MA for quite a while now, and it hasn't affected me or my life at all. Straight people are happily married, gay people are happily married (and some of both are unhappily so)-but marriage remains marriage. I prefer to focus on my life and what I need to do as a person trying to get along in this world and not butt into the lives of others. Life is much happier that way, for me.

 

[martha]

That's a mistaken prejudiced notion on your part and has little to do with the discussion at hand..

No it isn't. People passed a proposition that restricted a minority's rights. The people who voted for it truly believed that it was the right thing to do. I'm sure many of them quoted appropriate Bible verses to make them feel better about voting for it.

It's the same thing diamond. The same situation.

And it's disingenuous of you to pretend that your religion-based prejudice is any less offensive and full of shit than theirs was.

The time will come when you will look as ridiculous and pathetic as the people who supported segregation look now. I can only hope it will happen in your lifetime.

 

[diamond]

No, it's not Martha and I refuse to digress any futhur in this matter.

As quickly as this life passes you and I will see the good fights we fought, the wrong fights we fought and have a perfect clarity of what Truths were Good and what Truths were Eternal.

And may I be the first to ask your forgiveness here for any misunderstandings we may have in this life?

I also forgive you and others unconditionally for the mean spirited things you *may* have said about me and my Faith in this life.


God Bless.

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[MrsSpringsteen]

Why isn't it the same-because gay people choose to be gay? Does it come down to that? So they deserve what they get because that's what they choose ? They choose that behavior ?

 

[diamond]

you're forgiven too.

 

[diamond]

Why isn't it the same-because gay people choose to be gay? Does it come down to that? So they deserve what they get because that's what they choose ? They choose that behavior ?

I don't know how much is genetic or learned, but I did find this about a young man with gay proclivities that had a beautiful out of body experience met Christ and was able to marshall his sexual desires and serve God as a Catholic Priest.

I was visiting a college friend's home in Kansas. My friend's name was Joe H. His father Bill H. was a Lt. Colonel. Joe H. was a Southern Baptist and I was an agnostic. Joe asked me to pray with him before dinner while in his room. I told Joe that I could not as I did 'not believe.' Joe told me that my problem was that I was 'afraid to pray.' So, being 21 one and feeling invincible, I told Joe that I accept his dare and I would pray. Joe closed his eyes and lowered his head, but I did neither. I kept my eyes open and said the following prayer: "If I have done anything wrong, I am truly sorry, and if there is a God I want to know you." Immediately, something like scales fell from my eyes. The scales were gray in color and seem to have the consistency of me of snake scales or the fragility of cigarette ashes to the human touch. I was amazed when they fell from my eyes and put out my hands almost in reflex in an effort to catch them; the scales fell into the palms of my hands but I felt nothing, they had no weight. Suddenly, a brilliant crystalline white light appeared above me half the distance between where I was sitting and Joe was sitting. Time seemed to stop. The amazing light flooded the entire room and everything it shone upon became a bleached white color: the furnishings, the beds, wood surfaces, painted walls, everything except for the skin tones of Joe and I. Our skin tones of our bodies and faces were unaffected. The light seemed infinitely bright, brighter than a million suns, but its light did not hurt my eyes. I could look into the light without pain. The light seemed to surrounding a being that I could not see. The being was occupying space but not space like we normally think of space. It seemed to be there and everywhere at the same time. The being seemed to possess a kind of infinite depth to itself.

Immediately, a strong but gentle voice spoke to me from the light, a voice heard not with my ears but with my mind. The being of light said, "Carry, I love you exactly the way you are." The funny thing was that when I heard that voice I recognize it. Somehow, I 'knew' this being. He was like the best friend I always wanted and wished for but did not know it. But, upon hearing his voice, I knew him immediately.

When the being of light first said this, I felt like the most loved human being of all time, the most favorite of all human beings in the universe, past, present or future, yet at the same time I knew this being loved everyone equally and just as infinitely as I felt right then. The being delighted in me and was completely focused on me. I was the center of its attention yet somehow I knew everyone was at the 'center' of its attention.

When the being said those words to me I knew it saw me as I was, faults and all, not just at that moment, but for all the moments of my life. I felt no shame, no judgment; in fact, it was so liberating to be known so perfectly, to be so wonderfully accepted, yet at the same time, not judged or condemned in the slightest way.

I saw this encounter as my best chance to ask the being of light a question. I somehow knew this being was God, Jesus in fact. I had been struggling with homosexual thoughts since a teen and felt so ashamed, so I asked this being, "Is it alright to be gay?"

I could not see the face of this being, but I can tell you I 'know' it smiled and laughed. It did not laugh at me. It seemed to enjoy the fact that I asked my question as if it knew how hard it was for me to ask it and how earnestly I sought the answer. It 'looked' at me with such love (I felt this but again I could not see its face) and then the loving being said, "Carry, that is not the most important question." He said that with such gentleness; it clearly wanted to draw me into his life so that all my questions could be answered. Before I could ask, "What is the most important question?," it "touched" the top of my head. Again, I did not see this being touch me, but I know it did. And, when it touched my head my whole body became translucent. I could see right through my body and my clothes yet at the same time I could make out every detail even as I could see right through myself! Then, it poured something of itself in me, and a wonderful golden light poured into me. It was pure gold, a shimmering golden light. It was so beautiful; it was not like any ordinary light as this light was 'alive' with pure joy, peace, goodness, life. And, I watched as the golden light 'filled' up my feet and then my legs and then my whole body to the very top of my head. At that eternal moment, I felt so alive, so free, so loved, so joyful that I no longer wanted to be on this earth. I realized that if I wanted to I could 'will' myself to leave my body and enter that wonderful light, becoming one with that being of light. And, so I did will that I leave my body, but the light instantly disappeared. Later, my friend Joe admitted that in his mind's eye he also saw a being of light while praying but as his eyes were closed he did not see what I saw. A few days later, I met a friend who knew nothing of what had happened and she immediately exclaimed, "Carry, what happened, you are so bright!" All of this happened years ago.

The experience changed me. God is real to me. I eventually became a Catholic priest. One of the lingering effects of this experience is that I am able to "see" spirits of people for a few days after their deaths. I have many encounters with loved ones right after their deaths. I could 'see' them and they communicate to me their joy. One told me, "Carry, it is so beautiful!"

I have felt the same unconditional love and exquisite joy that I felt with the being of light (Jesus) when they 'visit.' As a Catholic priest, I have experienced loving spirits at the funerals of parishioners. Sometimes, I can 'see' their loved ones standing next to the bereaved and I can feel their heavenly joy.

Consequently, I have no fear of death as I know that this loving being of light is real. As I say, I know that this being of light is Jesus. If we only knew, how loved we are loved by God and that we are truly beings of love meant to love and receive love!

Was the kind of experience difficult to express in words? Yes I can describe it but I express in words the love/joy/peace I felt.

At the time of this experience, was there an associated life threatening event? No

At what time during the experience were you at your highest level of consciousness and alertness? The entire time I was fully alert and fully conscious.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

you're forgiven too.

I'm just going to say it-cut the crap diamond. I have done zero to you to be forgiven for, I have questioned your reasoning in the nicest way that I could. Questioning your reasoning is NOT questioning your faith. You resort to your condescending ways once again, and to making yourself the victim. I didn't say any mean spirited things about you or your faith.

One person's experience is just that-you can't extrapolate from it to try to back up any of your reasoning and apply it to every gay person, no matter how hard you try.

 

[Diemen]

i know.

and while marriages are a privilege -i think gcus should be aknowledged the same way.

i think the movement should fight to enact and pass federal legislation to mirror similar benefits as married cpls.
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You've said this numerous times but never answered the follow up question I've posted numerous times: would you vote in favor of such legislation?

 

[diamond]

i would have to look at the legislation first.

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[martha]

Not an answer.

 

[BoMac]

i would have to look at the legislation first.

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If the legislation would offer all of the benefits and privileges of marriage—without calling it marriage—and recognize these benefits on a national scale, would you vote for it?

 

[diamond]

I stated earlier in the thread that I'd support GCUs having the same privleges as marrieds stopping at adoptions.

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