Proposition 8 discussion continued

[Irvine511]

erm, well, anyway, i'm at home and recovering from the Prop 8 protest in DC. (Memphis did volunteer work since he was already committed).

it was quite a positive experience. very calm, very happy, good spirit. probably 4-5,000 people, lots of families, lots of straight allies, and it skewed quite young.

we did get poured on, and we started to joke that the rain (and tornado watches) came because some people our there were praying real extra hard.

and then, right as we made our way right up towards the white house behind the Washington Monument and in front of the Lincoln Memorial, a rainbow appeared. no joke. you can probably see it on Andrew Sullivan's blog since i was maybe 10 feet from him when i saw him take the picture. then when we got to Lafayette Park in front of the White House, it had stopped raining and the sun began to come out.

it's such a simple issue. maybe i'll post some pictures when i get them off my camera. right now, i'm still in recovery since i was soaked to the skin.

 

[Lila64]

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Lots of commentary & pictures from protests around the country on Andrew's site. This might be the rainbow you mentioned:

Also, there's a 'quote of the day' on his site as well

"The right to marry whoever one wishes is an elementary human right compared to which ‘the right to attend an integrated school, the right to sit where one pleases on a bus, the right to go into any hotel or recreation area or place of amusement, regardless of one’s skin or color or race’ are minor indeed. Even political rights, like the right to vote, and nearly all other rights enumerated in the Constitution, are secondary to the inalienable human rights to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence; and to this category the right to home and marriage unquestionably belongs," - Hannah Arendt, Dissent, 1959.

 

[Irvine511]

^ yup, that's the one.

the weather was insane today.

 

[BAW]

we did get poured on, and we started to joke that the rain (and tornado watches) came because some people our there were praying real extra hard.

I jokingly thought the same thing when Southern California started bursting into flames today

 

[phillyfan26]

i think it's funny that it's more of a money issue w gays, taxes, medical benefits and not for "better or worse" and love etc.

i think if hetros had those tax and med. benefits stripped and civil unions had them handed to them, the strights would still want to be "married" and gays would be ok w it being called "civil unions".



<>

Completely false statement with no basis in reality.

 

[Irvine511]

i Jokingly Thought The Same Thing When Southern California Started Bursting Into Flames Today

Lol.

 

[martha]

I jokingly thought the same thing when Southern California started bursting into flames today

Before the election, there was an article in the LA Times, and some genius Prop 8 supporter actually connected the fires in Northern California with the Supreme Court decision to include gays in the Constitution.

 

[phillyfan26]

I jokingly thought the same thing when Southern California started bursting into flames today

Now that's funny. This site rarely makes me laugh out loud, but this did. Thank you, BAW.

 

[toscano]

So much for "vote your conscience"

Man faces possible excommunication from LDS Church for supporting same sex marriage - ABC 4.com

 

[HBK-79]

I agree with Jon Stewart when he said things like gay marriage are for show.

 

[BoMac]

I agree with Jon Stewart when he said things like gay marriage are for show.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it doesn't sound like something Jon Stewart would say.

 

[yolland]

He did...with reference to gay marriage opponents treating it as a scapegoat for things that actually do threaten marriages, infidelity etc.

 

[WCF]

So much for "vote your conscience"

Man faces possible excommunication from LDS Church for supporting same sex marriage - ABC 4.com

What?! It says he faced "possible excommunication," but was he actually excommunicated? I'm surprised this hasn't been brought into more attention. I've never been a fan of people stereotyping Mormons for things that have happened ages ago, most Mormons are very good people with the best intentions, but this is just so backwards and wrong that someone somewhere in that church deserves to be slapped.

 

[BoMac]

He did...with reference to gay marriage opponents treating it as a scapegoat for things that actually do threaten marriages, infidelity etc.

OK, that makes more sense.

 

[financeguy]

Thankyou for presenting a very neo-con point of view

I support it

I don't think Melon was sanctioning illegal invasions.

But, whatever.

 

[financeguy]

Really, for someone who loves to talk about the "slippery slope," you seemingly have no interest in recognizing the errors of your logic. But that's conservatism for you.

"But that's conservatism for you."

This is a surprisingly lazy generalisation, from you.

For the sake of summarising my point of view for the general reader, I sometimes make generalisations about 'the left', and people like BVS, etc, call me out on it and object to it.

So the fact that no-one called you out on this does cause me to suspect that a lot of people here have a bias and display double standards.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I don't think Melon was sanctioning illegal invasions.

But, whatever.

What...the "hypocrisy" of the tolerance movement is that they should tolerate intolerance? Conservatives, once upon a time, cited this contradiction as the fallacy of postmodernism and its influence on liberalism. But now I see conservatives playing the same fallacy themselves, now that outrage is being directed at them, rather than Islam.

But, frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the former. We should not tolerate intolerance, and, instead, champion the ideals of freedom and equality. Those who stand in the way should rightly be criticized; religious bigotry does not enjoy immunity from criticism!

Melon, a liberal mugged by reality?

 

[financeguy]

Neo-'conservativism' is the bastard offspring of reformed Trotsykites (exhibit A: Christopher Hitchens) and right wingers who thought that the only mistake the US made in Vietnam was that it didn't kill enough gooks (exhibits B and C: STING2 and Ann Coulter); it is entirely possible, believe it or not, to both agree wholeheartedly with Melon's point and also completely reject every single thing the neo-'conservative' movement has ever had to say on foreign policy.

 

[yolland]

I wouldn't really characterize the cynical distortions of 'separation of church and state,' 'equal rights,' etc. that melon was criticizing as "neoconservative" rhetoric. Not that I necessarily have a better label ready...

 

[diamond]

I think you guys are still pissed that it took a new "revelation" from god to give blacks equal rights, conveniently just before your tax-exempt status was to be reviewed..

Haven't heard this aspersion before, please expound on it.

<>

 

[yolland]

erm, well, anyway, i'm at home and recovering from the Prop 8 protest in DC. (Memphis did volunteer work since he was already committed).

it was quite a positive experience. very calm, very happy, good spirit. probably 4-5,000 people, lots of families, lots of straight allies, and it skewed quite young.

we did get poured on, and we started to joke that the rain (and tornado watches) came because some people our there were praying real extra hard.

and then, right as we made our way right up towards the white house behind the Washington Monument and in front of the Lincoln Memorial, a rainbow appeared. no joke. you can probably see it on Andrew Sullivan's blog since i was maybe 10 feet from him when i saw him take the picture. then when we got to Lafayette Park in front of the White House, it had stopped raining and the sun began to come out.

it's such a simple issue. maybe i'll post some pictures when i get them off my camera. right now, i'm still in recovery since i was soaked to the skin.

That sounds amazing. I loved this inspiring, if brief, quote from a reader on Sullivan's blog:

A week ago I wrote you just to vent and express my sadness about the ban on gay marriage...but today after attending our rally in South Beach, I won't be any more. I am not sad nor do I want to be angry any more. I just want to do what needs to be done.

Fired up. Ready to go.

 

[Varitek]

Have people heard about this?

Day Without A Gay, December 10, 2008

 

[toscano]

Haven't heard this aspersion before, please expound on it.

<>

Which part had you not heard ? That the LDS was practicing institutionalized racism in the 70's or that you are bigots now ?

 

[anitram]

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - On Election Day, LDS Church members helped pass the Proposition 8 same-sex marriage ban in California.

But now, a new internal LDS Church document has surfaced, one showing the Church's involvement and strategy going back more than a decade.

This memo was reportedly sent from a LDS General Authority to a member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

It deals with the issue of same-sex marriage and it is dated, March 4, 1997.

This eleven-year-old memo gives a glimpse into President Gordon B. Hinckley's strategy for dealing with same-sex marriage.

It talks of a meeting with President Hinckley who reportedly said to "move ahead" with the church's opposition to same-sex marriage.

This memo also discusses joining forces with the Catholic Church, saying:

"...the public image of the Catholic Church is higher than our Church. In other words, if we get into this, they are the ones with which to join."

I think this is important because a lot of people erroneously connected this to Romney in the sense that it was the motivation behind a second run made by him. In fact it's been a long time in the making. Interestingly, I think it will end up hurting Mittens more than helping. LDS Church to Mittens is sort of like George is to Jeb at this point.

Memo: Same-sex marriage strategy discussed by Hinckley in 1997 - ABC 4.com

 

[diamond]

Which part had you not heard ? That the LDS was practicing institutionalized racism in the 70's or that you are bigots now ?

no, the name calling has ben there since our beginning, what you're doing is nothing new.

i was referring to losing the church's tax exemption claim you made.

<>

 

[diamond]

I think this is important because a lot of people erroneously connected this to Romney in the sense that it was the motivation behind a second run made by him. In fact it's been a long time in the making. Interestingly, I think it will end up hurting Mittens more than helping. LDS Church to Mittens is sort of like George is to Jeb at this point.

Memo: Same-sex marriage strategy discussed by Hinckley in 1997 - ABC 4.com

so much for the 'the lds want to be aligned w more orthodox christians' claim then, aye?

 

[anitram]

Do a little research on it.

It was fairly obvious given the Supreme Court rulings in the 1970s (look up Bob Jones) that it was simply a matter of time before the LDS church lost its tax exempt status because it operated as an openly racist organization. They sure acted really quick once Jimmy Carter became president.

The revelation was certainly timely and convenient.

 

[anitram]

so much for the 'the lds want to be aligned w more orthodox christians' claim then, aye?

Clearly you didn't read the article.

 

[toscano]

no, the name calling has ben there since our beginning, what you're doing is nothing new.

i was referring to losing the church's tax exemption claim you made.

<>

if it's a fact it's not name-calling

Anyhow, do you not have access to all the interwebz tubes ?

Or is everything funneled through worldnetdaily ?

There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of references to this, if you still can't find them let me know.

"Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage."

Brigham Young, who led many of the Mormons to Salt Lake City, UT wrote:

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed." 1


Joseph Fielding Smith -- not to be confused with Joseph Smith, the founder of the church -- was the sixth President of the LDS church. He wrote:

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less." 2,3

"The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. 'No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood' (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a 'Nation of Priesthood holders'...."

"The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice,"

Such enlightenment..........

Feel free to try yahoo or google.........

 

[anitram]

The revelation:

Elder Le Grand Richards, from an interview by Wesley Walters and Chris Vlachos on August 16, 1978, Church Office Building, Salt Lake City:

Walters: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories: I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles; I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time, and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all?

Richards: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population there that it is hard to get leaders that don't have negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it. Well, Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it. He asked each one of us of the twelve if we would pray--and we did--that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then he invited each one of us in his office--individually, because you know when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of the group, see--so he interviewed each one of us, personally. to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for, or against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the colored people the priesthood. Then we had a meeting where we meet every week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group circle. and then held another prayer circle after the close of that meeting, and he (President Kimball) lead in the prayer; praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed to do the thing that would be pleasing to Him and for the blessing of His children.

And then the next Thursday--we meet every Thursday--the presidency came with this little document written out to make the announcement--to see how we'd feel about it--and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of the Twelve suggested a few changes in the announcement, and then in our meeting there we all voted in favor of it--the Twelve and the first Presidency. One member of the Twelve, Mark Peterson, was down in South America, but Brother Benson, our president, had arranged to know where he could be reached by phone, and right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother Kimball talked with Brother Peterson, and read him the article, and he (Peterson) approved of it.

Walters: There wasn't a special document as a "revelation", that he had wrote down?

Richards: We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said.

As much divine as the Catholic pronouncement that we should eat fish on Fridays.