Proposition 8 discussion continued

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I'm hardly one to ever stand in the way of people who are calling diamond out, but let's be clear that the line 'these are my personal opinions and thoughts' was part of the letter he posted. The original author wrote that line.
 
Aww, diamond, you couldn't even come up with your own personal opinions and thoughts? That's pitiful. :tsk:

perhaps brother hamilton channeled my thoughts, and i signed off on the idea. More importantly i've voiced most of his points on my own before stumbling on to his piece.

We Mormons come from a higher intellectual sphere and on occassions think alike.


:sexywink:

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First off, no, civil unions do not get all the same legal rights as married couples. Civil unions are only recognized by states. That means you still don't get protection from the federal government; no tax breaks, no joint-tax returns, no benefits a married couple would have from the federal government.
But neither do same-sex marriages. The federal government recognizes neither same-sex marriages nor civil unions/domestic partnerships--nor are other states obligated to recognize them. It makes no difference whether your own state recognizes same-sex marriages or civil unions/domestic partnerships. See Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Otherwise I agree with your post.
 
But neither do same-sex marriages. The federal government recognizes neither same-sex marriages nor civil unions/domestic partnerships--nor are other states obligated to recognize them. It makes no difference whether your own state recognizes same-sex marriages or civil unions/domestic partnerships. See Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ah your right. I didn't think of that. Thanks for the clarification

Its sad that even if gays would be allowed to marry, they still wouldn't be completely equal.
 
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12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out
on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do -- we spoke up, we campaigned and we voted.



These are my personal opinions and thoughts; any errors are mine and in no way reflect official church policy or doctrine.

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I'm confused as to how my :lmao: about Irvine's tsunami statement prompted this^
 
Furthermore, that particular point makes an interesting argument:

Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do -- we spoke up, we campaigned and we voted.

Oh, so you're not really bigots, you're just speaking up, campaigning and voting.

Bigots do that too. :shrug:
 
perhaps brother hamilton channeled my thoughts, and i signed off on the idea. More importantly i've voiced most of his points on my own before stumbling on to his piece.

We Mormons come from a higher intellectual sphere and on occassions think alike.


:sexywink:

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Yeah, that's called plagiarism. Just like several of your other recent posts.

It's one thing to agree with bullshit, but at least site the bullshiter's name. It's another thing to take credit for someone else's shit.
 
The Hypocrisy of the Tolerance Movement:


The people have spoken twice in California supporting the traditional definition of marriage—once in 2000 and again this election—but that isn't enough for proponents of same-sex marriage who intend to intimidate and harass until their philosophy triumphs. As San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom said when the California Supreme Court ruled for same-sex marriage earlier this year, “It's going to happen—whether you like it or not.”

Though opponents of Prop. 8 who seek for same-sex marriage tout that they are the movement of tolerance, their actions mark them as hypocrites, as they send the message through protests, property vandalism and singling out donors for vilification that anybody getting in their way had better watch out. Payback and punishment will follow for those who have exercised their right of political expression to support traditional marriage.

This, of course, is designed to inhibit and terrorize anyone who opposes redefining marriage, chilling not only discussion of the issues, but political opposition altogether. At the very least, those who support that marriage is between a man and a woman are labelled hateful and bigoted.

Even the media participated in this kind of name-calling. The Los Angeles Times, for instance in endorsing a “no” vote on the marriage amendment said, “Vote No on the bigotry of Proposition 8.” But supporters of traditional marriage have also seen windows broken, cars keyed, and social disdain. Many ministers are employing guards to watch their churches round the clock.

A particularly easy target for abuse, perhaps because they are a minority, has been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, whose First Presidency sent a letter to the California congregations in June urging members to be involved in supporting the marriage amendment. Apparently participation as citizens in issues opposing the same-sex marriage agenda cannot be tolerated for now it has become open season on the church and its individual members.

In the past few days, thousands of people have besieged LDS temples in Los Angeles , Manhattan , San Diego , and Salt Lake . Freeway ramps were closed leading to the Oakland temple because of angry protesters. Two days after the election, fearing for the safety of members, LDS officials had to temporarily suspend services at the Los Angeles temple because of the threatening crowds. More protests at LDS temples are planned and at least one website is calling for the LDS temple in Los Angeles to be a permanent protest site.

The protesters bear signs like: “Mormon scum”; “Mormon money, Mormon lies”; “Go back to Utah ”; “Latter-day H8”: “Religious bigots”. They scrawled graffiti on the walls surrounding the temple lot, calling Latter-day Saints “liars” and chanted, “Stop Mormon hate.”

This was a mirror of the sort of threats that appeared on homosexual blogs toward religious people who supported Prop 8. A blogger wrote, "Trust me. I've got a big list of names of mormons and catholics that were big supporters of Prop 8. ... As far as mormons and catholics ... I warn them to watch their backs." Another blogger wrote, “Burn their [expletive deleted] churches to the ground and then tax the charred embers.”

For those who claim that when traditional marriage proponents say a child deserves to have a mother and father, it is hate speech, let us draw a clear distinction. What we see on these blogs is what hate speech looks like. It is not hate speech to assert what every other generation has taken for granted.

Calling your opponents “hateful” is just a tool to silence them.

The AP has reported that there's a growing call amongst opponents of Prop 8, gay rights activists and others to boycott the entire state of Utah to punish the Mormon Church and Utah 's vibrant tourism industry.

Under the mantra “Tax LDS now, hate on your own dime,” a petition is also afoot to gather support to challenge the tax-exempt status of the LDS church. This is a frivolous effort, for though, according to some estimates, individual members of the church accounted for some $20 million worth of contributions to the cause of supporting the marriage amendment, according to the Protect Marriage campaign, the LDS church itself only contributed a little more than $2,000 for travel expenses for some officials to attend a meeting.

What is more pointed is Prop 8 opponents have created a website called antigayblacklist.com that lists donors to Prop 8 and where they work. The call is to boycott their businesses. This means, of course, that employees may be penalized at their workplace and seen as a threat to a business's profit for having made a free choice in an election.

Scott Eckern, the well-liked artistic director of the California Musical Theatre in Sacramento resigned this week after a 25-year career, driven out because he voted “Yes” on Prop 8 and donated $1000 to the cause.

According to the Sacramento Bee, "when Tony Award-winner Marc Shaiman, the composer of ‘Hairspray,' read of Eckern's donation last week, he urged artists and theater workers across the country to boycott the theater." He wrote "that he wouldn't allow his work to be done at California Musical Theatre, and theater workers across the country have followed his lead...

"Susan Egan, star of ‘Thoroughly Modern Millie' and ‘Cabaret,' followed with a similar email. Theater professionals flooded CMT's offices over the weekend with phone calls and emails decrying Eckern's actions."

Catch that phrase. "Decrying Eckern's actions." These actions that are being so widely decried are his making a legitimate choice as a citizen in a free election, voting the way the majority of Californians voted, including 70% of the African Americans who seem not to be buying the idea that anyone's civil rights have been violated as theirs once were.

Most egregious was a commercial created to run on election day where two actors, posing as LDS missionaries invade the home of a same-sex couple. They knock on the door, say they are from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and tell a lesbian couple "we are here to take away your rights." They take their wedding rings, ransack the house looking for their marriage license, find it, and then tear it up. They say, "that was too easy, yeah, what should we ban next?" Then the ad says: "Say No to a Church taking over your government. Vote No on Prop. 8"

Of course, this deplorable ad was seeking to incite hatred and fear of a religious minority, but it is ultimately a strike against churches having any say in these vital social issues, and the last line is absolutely chilling for all religious people, no matter who they are, as it seeks to censor their voices. Any church has a constitutional right of expression on political and social issues.

One of the most potent arguments against same-sex marriage is that it tramples religious freedom. A group of distinguished legal scholars recently published a book called Same-Sex Marriage and Religious Liberty, Emerging Conflicts . While they fall on both sides of the issue concerning the desirability of same-sex marriage for our culture, they unanimously agree on one point—that a conflict is brewing for religious freedom, which includes freedom of speech.

Harvard Law professor Mary Ann Glendon wrote in 2004, during the same-sex marriage debate in Massachusetts, ''the experience in other countries reveals that once these arrangements become law, there will be no live-and-let-live policy for those who differ. Gay-marriage proponents use the language of openness, tolerance, and diversity, yet one foreseeable effect of their success will be to usher in an era of intolerance and discrimination...The ax will fall most heavily on religious persons and groups that don't go along."

Religious groups have legitimate concerns that they will be gagged regarding the importance of traditional marriage and family, if same-sex marriage becomes a civil right. Yet, same-sex advocates know it doesn't take the force of law alone to silence opposition. You can harangue and intimidate people into silence. You can threaten their jobs and target their livelihood—even if they have been at their job for 25 years.

The press is often complicit in seeking to paint supporters of traditional marriage in an odious light and uses its own methods to silence them. Brian Fitzpatrick writing in an Anglican publication noted that the New York Times condemned “the ugly outcome of these ballot fights” and ran seven letters to the editor, six by opponents. The Chicago Sun-Times called traditional marriage “discrimination and nonsense.”

Fitzpatrick said a local CBS station in Palm Springs , Calif showed furious protesters knocking a Christian cross out of an elderly woman's hands and stomping on it. She remained calm and collected, and when Kimberly Chang, the reporter, tried to interview her, protesters blocked the camera with their signs. Then CBS anchor Kris Long, in a magical act of moral equivalence, told viewers, “There's a lot of anger and a lot of hate, quite honestly on both sides.”

What is accurate is that for holding the not-so-very-remarkable idea that marriage is between a man and a woman, citizens and their churches are being warred upon. George W. Dent, Jr., wrote of this conflict in the Kentucky Law Journal, “[T]his war is not amenable to compromise. [T]he goal of the gay movement is not primarily economic; most gays already have above-average incomes. The goal, rather, is approval of homosexuality as legally and socially equal to heterosexuality. Because of the tremendous influence of religion in America , this goal cannot be achieved unless religious groups either surrender, thus affirming this equality or, at least, those that do not are reduced to a despised minority compelled to keep its views to itself. In other words, the goal of the gay movement is to confine its opponents in the closet.”

In a democracy, the results of a fair election should be respected and no one should be singled out for attack because they are exercising their core civil right to speak, vote, or donate to the cause of their choice. If, instead, a group demands adherence to their point of view, with consequences for those who do not comply, we are veering sharply from a fundamental foundational principle of our nation. The technique of vilification and intimidation of those who do not comply or conform is a tool of totalitarian systems.

Maurine Jensen Proctor
 
The people may have spoken, but they are wrong and the fight will continue until EVERYONE has equal rights. This isn't going to go away.
 
The Hypocrisy of the Tolerance Movement:

oh look, another LDS article saying "don't blame us for bankrolling bigotry", just like they did in the 70's when they were primarily a racist / polygamist movement......

That backlash has to be hurting........long may it continue !
 
What...the "hypocrisy" of the tolerance movement is that they should tolerate intolerance? Conservatives, once upon a time, cited this contradiction as the fallacy of postmodernism and its influence on liberalism. But now I see conservatives playing the same fallacy themselves, now that outrage is being directed at them, rather than Islam.

But, frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the former. We should not tolerate intolerance, and, instead, champion the ideals of freedom and equality. Those who stand in the way should rightly be criticized; religious bigotry does not enjoy immunity from criticism!
 
What...the "hypocrisy" of the tolerance movement is that they should tolerate intolerance? Conservatives, once upon a time, cited this contradiction as the fallacy of postmodernism and its influence on liberalism. But now I see conservatives playing the same fallacy themselves, now that outrage is being directed at them, rather than Islam.

But, frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the former. We should not tolerate intolerance, and, instead, champion the ideals of freedom and equality. Those who stand in the way should rightly be criticized; religious bigotry does not enjoy immunity from criticism!




it seems that modern conservatives, like Ms. Sarah Palin, believe that free speech means the right to say whatever you want and not be criticized.

it's not.

and it's funny how the intolerants want their bogus, scientifically discredited views -- homosexuality is a choice, jesus rode dinosaurs -- not just tolerated, but actually embraced because if we do anything less than fully endorse and defend not just their right to believe nonsense, but the nonsense itself, then we're religiously intolerant.

it seems to me, diamond, to point out another line that you've stolen from any odd right wing pundit, that it's not liberalism that's a mental disorder ...
 
Hey, if I actually saw a legitimate argument for Proposition 8, I'd be willing to "tolerate" it.

But I've yet to seen one, and I doubt one exists.

Nathan, INDY, diamond ... ball's in your court.
 
The people of California spoke in 1964


The initiative, numbered Proposition 14 when it was certified for the ballot, was to add an amendment to the constitution of California. This amendment would provide, in part, as follows:

"Neither the State nor any subdivision or agency thereof shall deny, limit or abridge, directly or indirectly, the right of any person, who is willing or desires to sell, lease or rent any part or all of his real property, to decline to sell, lease or rent such property to such person or persons as he, in his absolute discretion, chooses."

The initiative proved to be overwhelmingly popular, and was passed by a 65% majority vote in the 1964 California elections.


The argument was that a person's home was their castle
and the government had no right telling them to whom they could or could not sell their property.
 
Hey, if I actually saw a legitimate argument for Proposition 8, I'd be willing to "tolerate" it.

But I've yet to seen one, and I doubt one exists.

Nathan, INDY, diamond ... ball's in your court.

the oppoents of the prop are trying to say it is an argument against homosexuality-when in it's not.

they've made great leaps of illogic to redefine the intent of the prop and have become intolerant haters and monsters that they so despise in the process.


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the oppoents of the prop are trying to say it is an argument against homosexuality-when in it's not.

they've made great leaps of illogic to redefine the intent of the prop and have become intolerant haters and monsters that they so despise in the process.


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It is indeed an argument against homosexuality. At the very core of the arguments for Prop 8 was the message that homosexuality is wrong and exposing your children to it would be dangerous and lead to bad things.

As for becoming intolerant: bigotry should not be tolerated.
 
It's a definitive statement on marriage, plain and simple.


It's not a law against same sex attraction, same sex unions or their rights.


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That access was assumed by judges that imposed their will on citizens.

The people said no.

More importantly if you want to try and change minds, opposers of Prop 8 are going about it the wrong way.

Here's an article I found. I don't agree w it totally but agree w the substance contained therein:

Just A Quick Note To The People Who Are Using Childish Tantrums To Protest Proposition 8

You’re not doing yourselves or your cause any favors by acting the way you are.

Do you honestly think that by ripping a cross out of a little old lady’s hand and pushing her around you brought anyone around to your point of view ? I mean, there are probably a lot of people out there who are on the fence about the gay marriage issue and your mob mentality and thuggish behavior won’t help to tug them down on your side.

What did you hope to accomplish with your little display at the church in Lansing, Michigan this past weekend? You didn’t show yourselves to be honest citizens who are trying to achieve acceptance. You showed yourselves to be childish and immature, and you showed that you have absolutely no regard for the rights of others, yet you expect them to hand you special rights on a silver platter.

I also find it interesting that since you’ve discovered that blacks and Latinos overwhelmingly voted against same sex marriage, racial epithets are being thrown about by your little crew. Nice. Your philosophy is obvious: If I can’t get my way I’ll call you names. Nanny nanny boo-boo.

By the way, about all the effort that it took to invade that church in Lansing and all the passion you put into the disruption of a church service where people were minding their own business: why haven’t you utilized those same organizational skills to invade and disrupt one of the large black churches in California, or a Latino Catholic service in East L.A.? You’re mad at those people, too, right?

I know why, and so do you. And I don’t even need to spell it out.

And now you’re sending a white powder to the Mormon church. Very nice. The very people who scream “hate crime” at the slightest whiff of disagreement are resorting to the use of terrorism tactics because most people just don’t agree with their political agenda.

So.....keep throwing your tantrums. Keep screaming and threatening and howling to the moon, but remember this - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you’ve very lucky those to whom your hatred is directed will, unlike you, abide by the rule of law and not by the rule of the mob like you do. You’ll lose and keep losing at the ballot box as long as you keep acting like spoiled, over-privileged children.

If you’re not lucky people may start responding in kind. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that your continued hostility will cause the very people you need to vote for your cause to react to you the way you’re acting toward them now. Your histrionics may cause more violence and then you’ll don the mantle of victimhood once more. It’s a card you’re good at playing.

I’m hoping that doesn’t happen. That you won’t push things to the point where lives are destroyed just because you didn’t get your way.

Want to win people over? Want people to see things your way or at least be more accepting?

Try growing up and acting like adults. You just might be surprised at the results.
 
So in 4 or 8 years when the demographics shift further and the people legalize gay marriage by ballot, are you going to happily embrace this democratic process?

Because it is certain to happen. You are losing to time. Every day, you lose a little.
 
So in 4 or 8 years when the demographics shift further and the people legalize gay marriage by ballot, are you going to happily embrace this democratic process?

.

I will honor and respect the law and not mistreat those that have mistreated citizens that have respectfully disagreed w them.

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You didn't answer my question.

they assumed they had access to a right; a right to change the meaning of a word erroneously led on by certain judges, but the people said no.

asisde from that, their civil union rights will not and have be stripped from them: when they have been-let us know.


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