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Old 11-10-2008, 03:23 PM   #106
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It clearly didn't make any impact on Florida voters at all. We received numerous ads in our home regarding the rights of the elderly and unmarried heterosexual couples and it still didn't make an impact. Take what you will from that.
Sometimes it takes actual incidents, not just the idea of them.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:25 PM   #107
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Jesus Christ...how could you not read all of this and not come to the conclusion that you're a raving bigot?
Because I believe in parental notification rights, separation of church and state, and democracy?

Geez, Melon.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:31 PM   #108
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Who said I was for voter disenfranchisement?
3 million Californians would have their votes thrown out if the ACLU and Lambda Legal have their way, including a significant number of minority voters. Why is it okay to rule their votes invalid?
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:35 PM   #109
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Because I believe in parental notification rights, separation of church and state, and democracy?

Geez, Melon.
Already exists, how can you say that with a straight face, and a true democracy is about equality.

But go ahead and keep ignoring these issues, if you keep saying them over and over, you may one day believe them.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:40 PM   #110
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3 million Californians would have their votes thrown out if the ACLU and Lambda Legal have their way, including a significant number of minority voters. Why is it okay to rule their votes invalid?
This has nothing to do with throwing out votes, or voter disenfranchisement, this is about if it's constitutional. But nice stretch...
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #111
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Because I believe in parental notification rights, separation of church and state, and democracy?

Geez, Melon.
A large portion of the Yes on 8 vote was due to religious reasons. That's not separation of church and state.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:44 PM   #112
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3 million Californians would have their votes thrown out if the ACLU and Lambda Legal have their way, including a significant number of minority voters. Why is it okay to rule their votes invalid?
Again, when did I say that I would be OK with invalidating their votes? You still dance around the point. Which, it seems, you have not even bothered to address.

You made five points, none of which make any sense to me. I'd like to hear an explanation.

And I also think you need to read the "Ask the Daughter of Lesbians" thread.
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:06 PM   #113
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3 million Californians would have their votes thrown out if the ACLU and Lambda Legal have their way, including a significant number of minority voters. Why is it okay to rule their votes invalid?


because the Supreme Court of California found that banning gay citizens from access to the institution of marriage and it's subsequent legal rights and benefits was unconstitutional.

why is it okay to retain a law that has been found to violate the civil rights of millions of Californians?

you realize that this is how it happens, nathan. laws are challenged all the time by everyday folk and their attorneys.

and we'll even put aside the perverse notion that my rights as a despised, persecuted minority are somehow up to vote by the tyranny of the majority.

you'd think that someone who expresses such admiration for the early church when Christians were routinely tossed to the lions would have some modicum of appreciation for the rights and basic human dignity of the minority, especially when they're unpopular.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:55 PM   #114
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Because I believe in parental notification rights,
Parental notification was nowhere in the amendment just passed, and it's already California law. So, that one's bullshit.

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separation of church and state,
This one is just bullshit, since no one is forcing a church to marry anybody.

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and democracy?
Yep, democracy until your rights are voted off the island.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:59 PM   #115
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Why shouldn't there be anything about homosexuality in children's books? We promote heterosexuality enough, I see no reason why there shouldn't be books showing gay people. I mean I'm not saying let's print a million books on it but if someone writes the book and a school wants it, why not?
I just think it's not the best place for it, that's all. I mean, a lot of kids, when they see it, are just going to think 'oh that's cool, this girl has two mums' and not see teh entire reasoning behind it. My mum just told me about my sister, who brought home a book last year (she's 10) about a girl who had two mums, and it was her favourite book, just because the idea of having two mums seemed great to her because well, most little girls love their mum, having two would be awesome! It was the same when on Play School here last year, they showed a girl with two mums. There was a huge uproar. 'How can we expose our kids, blah blah blah.'

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Those adverts and a lot of the stuff that I've read in this thread just makes me sad...seriously some people are unbelievable. How does gay marriage affect straight couples at all? I'm straight, I'll probably get married someday, does it matter to me if gay marriage is legal or not? Nope, I can still marry the opposite sex so I'm happy and gays can marry the same sex so they're happy, win-win no?

I don't get the tradition argument either; tradition can be wrong, we've outlawed tradition so many times in different parts of the world, but unequal marriage is somehow different?

Straight people will still marry, have children, get divorced, commit adultery whether or not gays marry so why does it matter? It's never going to affect me personally so give them the right.
I agree with all this. The tradition argument is so poor. In the end, the benefits of it would far outweigh the negatives.

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What I think most shocking about Prop 8 is that it wasn't a case of 'not allowing gay people to marry in the first place' but 'taking that right away from people when they already had it.' It's an absolute example of people losing their social freedoms - this doesn't just affect gay people wishing to marry, it affects anyone who appreciates any sort of civil freedom. It shows that things people consider to be set in stone freedoms may face limitation in the future. It's depressing that, just when America seems to be making progress by electing an African American president, it takes a big step backwards too.
I don't get this -- this state made a law, allowing it yes? So why then go back and change that law? That's ridiculous, and as you say, shocking that it's a case of taking a right away.

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I'm only a senior in high school, and the arguments here for Prop. 8 are just appalling. Many seniors are already old enough to vote, and many I knew voted yes. Why? The first reason is religious belief, which is a terrible reason to vote down gay rights. We have separation of church and state for a reason. Hell if your going to impose your religious beliefs on other people. The second reason is that many people are simply ignorant; they believe gays are disgusting and don't want to see them around. I also say this is a terrible reason to vote down gay rights.
I'm just finishing Year 12 as well, so I spose I'm a 'senior', and the same thing happens over here. I've got soo many friends who would be totally against allowing gay marriage, simply for that reason you've stated - that gays are disgusting. That is a terrible reason. One of my mates in particular would be very strongly against it. And I say why? He says well because it's wrong. It's disgusting. "It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Well, no. It's not wrong, or disgusting.

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We're not even taught straight marriage in school; what, are they going to start teaching gay marriage simply for the sake of being controversial?
Which is why I thought that second ad was ridiculous.
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Er .... you sure about that?

I'd be curious to hear the opinions of people who voted for prop 8, and others elsewhere who have a problem with homosexuality. Does it simply come down to a belief that homosexuality is a choice?

Whenever someone says it's "morally wrong," I assume they think that people choose to be homosexual and choose to do something "morally wrong."

My parents are two of those people.
Poor choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that they're choosing to do something morally wrong.





It's funny, it's never really brought up here in Australia, and I can't see it being legalised anytime soon.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:21 PM   #116
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Because I believe in parental notification rights, separation of church and state, and democracy?

Geez, Melon.
Your Kafkaesque definition of the latter two (with the former being totally nonsensical and irrelevant--after all, what does "parental notification" have the fuck to do with getting married?) is what makes you a bigot.

I find it ironic that the man thought to have kicked off the culture wars in the late 1980s, Allan Bloom, was not only gay himself, but, due to his fairly secularist Lockean view of America, would totally laugh at your poor understanding of what separation of church and state and democracy actually means. Here's a hint: the Lockean notion of "inalienable rights" and "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" would certainly negate the notion that the majority has the right to marginalize an unpopular minority. At the same time, Bloom heavily criticized liberalism as an abject failure for embracing the "nihilist" philosophies of modernism and postmodernism, and being completely impotent to make moral stands and understand the classical philosophy--note that he didn't say "religion" or "the Bible"--that built Western civilization. Frankly, I think he's completely right on this point; if the Left had any idea of where they came from, we'd have defeated this destructive, creeping American theocracy handily decades ago. But alas, people think they have to be "tolerant" of religious intolerance, and how dare we call them out on it!

Undoubtedly, I think your support for Prop. 8 has absolutely nothing to do with those "noble" goals, and everything to do with disapproval over homosexuality. And that, frankly, is why minority rights are not put up for a vote by the majority, and why they have "inalienable rights" that are not up for you to decide.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:26 PM   #117
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I just think it's not the best place for it, that's all. I mean, a lot of kids, when they see it, are just going to think 'oh that's cool, this girl has two mums' and not see teh entire reasoning behind it. My mum just told me about my sister, who brought home a book last year (she's 10) about a girl who had two mums, and it was her favourite book, just because the idea of having two mums seemed great to her because well, most little girls love their mum, having two would be awesome! It was the same when on Play School here last year, they showed a girl with two mums. There was a huge uproar. 'How can we expose our kids, blah blah blah.'

I'm just finishing Year 12 as well, so I spose I'm a 'senior', and the same thing happens over here. I've got soo many friends who would be totally against allowing gay marriage, simply for that reason you've stated - that gays are disgusting. That is a terrible reason. One of my mates in particular would be very strongly against it. And I say why? He says well because it's wrong. It's disgusting. "It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Well, no. It's not wrong, or disgusting.

it's funny, it's never really brought up here in Australia, and I can't see it being legalised anytime soon.
I think that would be the ideal to happen; I mean if kids looked at a book with a gay couple in it and just didn't think of it, we'd be a lot closer to where we should be. If they grow up thinking it's something that just exists and is cool and there's nothing particularly odd about it, they'd probably be more accepting of it as they get older.

It it just me or are the guys who say that generally the same ones who love lesbians a lot? The majority of people I hear say gays are disgusting always mean gay men, if it's women they sing a different tune


That's what I was thinking about for here too; then I checked wikipedia and apparently the government announced a civil partnership law in June which is going through the legal motions. Apparently they were considering a vote on gay marriage too to change the constitution to allow it but were worried it would just be voted down so it wouldn't be worth it until there was a better chance of it passing. Even though a poll showed it would pass, then again that was just a poll so who knows?
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:55 PM   #118
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It it just me or are the guys who say that generally the same ones who love lesbians a lot? The majority of people I hear say gays are disgusting always mean gay men, if it's women they sing a different tune
Wow this is soooo true. You are describing entirely this mate I speak of. What can you do but laugh?

I'd call him a bigot, or a hypocrite, but I don't think he'd understand.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:00 PM   #119
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Undoubtedly, I think your support for Prop. 8 has absolutely nothing to do with those "noble" goals, and everything to do with disapproval over homosexuality. And that, frankly, is why minority rights are not put up for a vote by the majority, and why they have "inalienable rights" that are not up for you to decide.
Bingo.

It's protection from tyranny of the majority, plain and simple. A Madison ideal.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:02 PM   #120
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Poor choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that they're choosing to do something morally wrong.
Were you implying that homosexuality is a choice? That's what I understood you to be saying.
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