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Old 11-09-2008, 08:26 PM   #76
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Are you asking me to admit I was wrong? I am pretty stunned that this passed in CA.
No; I really meant the exact question asked. I was deeply disappointed but not surprised it passed, though if I hadn't been following the polling on it during the course of the campaign I might've been. Realistically, until there's a successful SCOTUS case (or, more unlikely, federal legislation) there's probably no way around the state-by-state referendum route. It's just that it makes me sick to my stomach to watch the process.
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:47 PM   #77
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You realize that there only approximately *275,000-300,000 of the Cailf LDS population that could have partipated in the over 10,0000,00 votes.

That amount of Registered LDS voters didn't even cover the spread. 48%-52%.

Why are you guys persecuting such a small bunch?

<>


do you know how much Mormon money from the HQ in SLC was spent?

upwards of $30m.

so Mormons from UTAH were interfering with the lives of CALIFORNIANS.

the church also did the same thing in ALASKA in 1998.
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:51 PM   #78
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Are you asking me to admit I was wrong? I am pretty stunned that this passed in CA.


this is, honestly, where the Mormons come in.

in June, no one thought Prop 8 would pass. support wasn't more than about 50% and it seemed to be dropping. as early as September, the polls were in favor of a "no" vote on Prop 8.

but the Mormon church bankrolled two very, very effective ads that seemed to go along way towards shifting public opinion.

here they are:

YouTube - YES on Proposition 8 California



YouTube - Yes on 8 TV Ad: It's Already Happened



the gay community and their supporters were totally out organized on this.

note the outright lies, too. the fear and hysteria over churches being "sued" and, as ever, "the children."

shameful. but effective.
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:45 PM   #79
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You mean civil rights like having every vote count? Voter disenfranchisement wasn't cool in 2000. Why is it cool in 2008?

Gosh, thanks for putting words in our mouths. How even-handed.

Here's some stuff to chew on:

Prop 8 voters supported:

1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.
2. Separation of church and state.
3. Freedom of speech.
4. The freedom of a self-governed society to decide whether it's going to redefine a core social value.
5. Thousands of years of tradition.

You're right, we're all crazy hate-mongers with wacky ideas.

And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
Who said I was for voter disenfranchisement?

1. What?
2. How?
3. How?
4. It's not a value, it's a right. Whether marriage should be a right or not is not the issue. The issue is whether, in the context of marriage, people of both natural orientations should be allowed to participate.
5. Who gives a fuck?

I have yet to see a reasonable argument that isn't about religion, tradition, or bigotry, none of which should have influence over this.

And K-Fed and Britney are relevant because your argument and INDY's argument are predicated on the idea that even the lowest common denominator for straights is better than any gay parental unit. Anything else would make your whole argument inaccurate.
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:57 PM   #80
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And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
Please don't tell me you are comparing gays to pedophiles here. I really hope you're not.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:57 PM   #81
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Just watched those two ads... have they not caused considerable outrage??

And also why is the education thing a problem? Why are kids being taught about marriage anyway? I never recall myself or anyone I know ever being taught anything about marriage in school. That's not the school's agenda, that should be a parental responsibilty.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:03 PM   #82
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^They were very weird ads

I can't actually recall myself being taught about marriage in school

But I suppose the conservatives were more freaking out there would be books in the classroom with the prince marrying a prince etc rather than any direct teaching...is there any chance of prop 8 being repealed, in the near future or further down the line? Is that possible?
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:20 PM   #83
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I assume that when they invoke "teaching marriage" in elementary schools, they're thinking mostly in terms of children reading or being read storybooks about or involving families (hence the ad). At higher grade levels, sometimes sex ed curriculums cover marriage, such as its legal and financial implications for example.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:52 PM   #84
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Yeah, I think it's just the idea that the existence of gay marriage, and, consequently, homosexuality, would be addressed in schools. I think parents, in a sense, want their kids to not even know what it is for as long as possible, in a hope to not have their kid "exposed" to homosexuality and, potentially, "become" gay.

So, really, it's playing off people's ignorance.
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Old 11-10-2008, 12:12 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Prop 8 voters supported:

1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.
2. Separation of church and state.
3. Freedom of speech.
4. The freedom of a self-governed society to decide whether it's going to redefine a core social value.
5. Thousands of years of tradition.

You're right, we're all crazy hate-mongers with wacky ideas.

And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
Jesus Christ...how could you not read all of this and not come to the conclusion that you're a raving bigot?

I hope, in an alternate universe, that we will all get a chance to vote you into irrelevance. After all, it'll be tradition and God's will too.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:51 AM   #86
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Reporting from Sacramento and Lake Forest -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Sunday expressed hope that the California Supreme Court would overturn Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that outlawed same-sex marriage. He also predicted that the 18,000 gay and lesbian couples who have already wed would not see their marriages nullified by the initiative.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger said in an interview Sunday on CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

With his favorable comments toward gay marriage, the governor's thinking appears to have evolved on the issue.

In past statements, he has said he believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman and has rejected legislation authorizing same-sex marriage. Yet he has also said he would not care if same-sex marriage were legal, saying he believed that such an important societal issue should be determined by the voters or the courts.

Schwarzenegger publicly opposed Proposition 8, which amends the state Constitution to declare that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

On Sunday, he urged backers of gay marriage to follow the lesson he learned as a bodybuilder trying to lift weights that were too heavy for him at first. "I learned that you should never ever give up. . . . They should never give up. They should be on it and on it until they get it done."

The governor's position on the fate of the existing same-sex marriages aligns him with California Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown, who has said he believes that the state Supreme Court will uphold the existing marriages as valid.

The 14-word constitutional amendment does not state explicitly that it would nullify same-sex marriages performed before the Nov. 4 election, although proponents say it will. Legal experts differ on this point.

Schwarzenegger's comments came as protesters took to the streets for a fifth day in a row, sometimes marching to Catholic and Mormon churches that supported passage of the ballot measure.

Hundreds of Proposition 8 protesters in Orange County gathered down the hill from Saddleback Church in Lake Forest as several thousand congregants attended services inside the sprawling religious campus.

Martijn Hostetler, 30, of West Hollywood held a sign that read "Purpose Driven Hate," a dig at the church's celebrity Pastor Rick Warren, author of the bestseller "The Purpose-Driven Life,"who backed the ballot measure. "I don't think Jesus would approve of a gay-marriage ban," he said. "I don't think God discriminates."

While demonstrators received supportive honks from motorists, many members of the mega-church said they had little sympathy for the protesters because the matter had already been settled by voters.

"We're a democracy and our strength is that the majority wins the vote," said John Kirkpatrick, a church member.

Sherrie Derriko, a longtime Saddleback Church member and hair salon owner from Mission Viejo, said she was bothered that protesters had targeted houses of worship. As she drove by, she rolled down her window to offer some advice.

"Read the Bible. God made man and woman, and that's what a marriage is," she called from inside her SUV.

Derriko recounted the incident after attending services. "When we saw them out there, we thought, 'Why are they not over this? Do they think they're going to change anything, or are they just stirring up trouble at our church?' "

But for Sally "Sal" Landers, 52, a Saddleback Church member from Lake Forest, her participation in the protest was a deeply personal matter. Landers and her female partner of three years plan to marry and adopt children. When she received an e-mail from Warren urging a "yes" vote on Proposition 8, she said, "I felt like I was kicked in the stomach by someone who loves unconditionally."

So on Sunday, Landers joined the protesters outside the church rather than the parishioners inside. "We really love him and respect his opinion," Landers said of Warren. "I need some reassurance that I'm welcome here as a gay American citizen."

Other protests were staged outside Mormon temples or churches in Oakland, Yucca Valley and other cities.

In downtown Los Angeles, 150 protesters congregated in front of the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels, chanting, among other things, "What would Jesus say?" The crowd was joined later in the day by protesters who marched from Lincoln Park on the city's Eastside.

Some churches, to be sure, assailed Proposition 8 as discriminatory.

"We will continue to bless same-sex unions here until we can legally celebrate same-sex unions again," the Rev. Ed Bacon told 1,000 congregants during Sunday services at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, which has blessed same-sex unions for 16 years.

After the service, Bacon and other clergy members held a news conference on the church steps. They were surrounded by gay and lesbian couples, some standing with young children.

"I know these couples. I know their relationships," Bacon said, addressing a phalanx of television cameras. "They should be celebrated, rather than disparaged. . . . In the eyes of God, these people are married."
Schwarzenegger tells backers of gay marriage: Don't give up - Los Angeles Times
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:05 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
I assume that when they invoke "teaching marriage" in elementary schools, they're thinking mostly in terms of children reading or being read storybooks about or involving families (hence the ad). At higher grade levels, sometimes sex ed curriculums cover marriage, such as its legal and financial implications for example.
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Originally Posted by phillyfan26 View Post
Yeah, I think it's just the idea that the existence of gay marriage, and, consequently, homosexuality, would be addressed in schools. I think parents, in a sense, want their kids to not even know what it is for as long as possible, in a hope to not have their kid "exposed" to homosexuality and, potentially, "become" gay.

So, really, it's playing off people's ignorance.
Okay, thanks

I just found it very strange that it should even be brought up, let alone it being a major reason, for lack of a better word, for telling people why they should be vote yes on 8. I mean, it's not as if there's an abundance of books in which gay marriage or relationships are written about, is there? And does voting no on 8 mean that all of a sudden there'll be a sharp rise in the number of books, specifically children's books, with homosexual undertones? That's just ridiculous. There's no need for there to be anything about homosexuality in children's books, not really the place for it, and the whole being exposed thing is not a good argument because in the end, it's a choice, and the decision isn't going to be made based upon what you read in one of you kids books. Just my $0.02, I just thought those ads, mainly the second one, seemed ridiculous.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:21 AM   #88
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People have good reason to be afraid of children's books, introducing children to gays and other groups when they are young can inculcate a tolerance and open mindedness in the next generation that is corrosive to bigotry. Look at the consequence of the gay rights movement since the 1960's and the changing social attitudes towards homosexuality, I would wager good money that children today will grow up more open to gay rights as normal than the generations which FYM posters were born into. Gay marriage and equal rights are an inevitability, the open question is how long reactionaries can mount a defence of the status quo.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:24 AM   #89
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Would it be such a tragedy if more of the forthcoming generation were exposed?

I'd like someone against equal rights to answer me that.
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:05 AM   #90
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This is why my governor is such a jerk-off. Where the fuck was he three weeks ago?

He's such an ass.
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