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Old 12-10-2008, 08:42 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
nathan, could you tell me what marital rights should be withheld from gay couples, and why?

be specific.
I just though I'd bring this up again in case nathan wants to post another long, researched answer to a post.
Or find another article to post instead.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:27 AM   #647
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In German it's still a perfectly normal word.


my apologies.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:30 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
In general, gay men have significantly more partners - even while within relationships.


perhaps these are the essential gender differences that some are so eager to make sure dominate our lives and culture?

in many ways, in light of gender, doesn't this make the love and commitment of a monogamous long term male couple that much more admirable? perhaps the very ideal towards which Christians should strive because these two men have obviously conquered whatever biological predisposition to promiscuity has been hardwired into men for, you know, milennia.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:40 AM   #649
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:46 AM   #650
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Is there a difference between recognizing the civil right of marriage to someone of the opposite sex but different race (as Loving affirmed), and declaring that marriage is a civil right which extends to anyone who wants to marry anyone at any time, regardless of gender, grouping, etc -- which neither Baker v. Nelson in 1972 nor Hernandez v. Robles in 2007 affirmed?


gay people have vigorously argued for their rights only, and gay people are widely recognized as a distinct, identifiable social group. homosexuality is an involuntary, harmless orientation that's recognized by every conceivable medical group in the western world. this isn't about everybody -- it is about a very specific group wanting to have access to rights that the majority enjoy. we're talking about something very specific here. the arguments have been presented in specific terms. the only people talking about other "groups" are the opponents.

so this isn't about marrying "anyone" -- it's about being able to marry someone.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:47 AM   #651
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:48 PM   #652
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Did anybody see Jon Stewart's interview with Mike Huckabee last night? A large portion of it was on the gay marriage issue.

What did you think?
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:23 PM   #653
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I thought it was awesome...

I'm sure Lila will be along shortly to post a clip

I especially like John's arguments about using the "tradition" of marriage as a defense being weak since things like polygamy used to be accepted and interracial marriages used to be discouraged.

His line about how a person can chose their religion but not chose their sexuality was spot on as well
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:31 PM   #654
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Mike Huckabee Will Not Marry Jon Under Any Circumstances | Indecision2008 | Comedy Central

The second video has the gay marriage discussion

"Forcing someone who is gay to make their case"-gee that sounds awfully familiar...
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:52 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
this really is the crux of it, and it's the crux of nathan's arguments which he's referenced, but hasn't returned to defend or expand upon. if marriage is about solidifying and codifying "natural" sex roles, i think it's only logical that there are certain privileges given to married straight folk that cannot be replicated in a civil union. i'd just like to know what those are.
I think this may have been, in effect, his answer here:
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What's being subverted is much more significant than that, Irvine -- it's that mother and father aren't necessary at all. And that is what is so upsetting to so many.
In which case, the issue really is just the title itself, because granting it to same-sex relationships would mean granting social and cultural sanction to a relationship that might lead to parenthood, and thus by extension to same-sex parenting. Yes, many unmarried heteros have kids; yes, many gay and lesbian couples have kids too; there'd be no practicable way of preventing those things--but, we don't sanction them with a title which happens to carry the cultural resonance of "best environment in which to raise children." Unfortunately, plenty of far-from-"best" hetero parents do have that sanction; but again, there's no practicable way to prevent that since you can't tell in advance which ones they are, whereas same-sex couples are easy to spot. Childless married heteros are irrelevant to the question because, well, they're childless. And while plenty of gay and lesbian couples who wish to marry might say (and mean) that they have no interest in becoming parents, there's no practicable way to know for sure that they won't.

At least, that's how I understand his argument.

Presumably most people who hold this stance on same-sex marriage are also opposed to same-sex couples being allowed to adopt but, perhaps conveniently, that's legally a separate issue from marriage rights.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:48 AM   #656
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At least, that's how I understand his argument.

Presumably most people who hold this stance on same-sex marriage are also opposed to same-sex couples being allowed to adopt but, perhaps conveniently, that's legally a separate issue from marriage rights.


what, then, are we to do with gay people? what choices do they have? or is it in society's best interests to marginalize and stigmatize them as much as possible so that their sex-role challenging relationships don't challenge and undermine and subvert the male/female binary relationship that produces children? (i guess because it's so fragile?)
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:57 PM   #657
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I've been gone from this thread for a while - no time to catch up at this point. Don't know if this has been posted (I searched, but didn't see anything). Mike Huckabee was on The Daily Show a couple of nights ago. Here's the clip from the Courage Campaign website, and a thank you note to sign if you wish to do so:

Courage Campaign | Repeal Prop 8: Thank Jon Stewart
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Old 12-11-2008, 06:24 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
or is it in society's best interests to marginalize and stigmatize them as much as possible so that their sex-role challenging relationships don't challenge and undermine and subvert the male/female binary relationship that produces children? (i guess because it's so fragile?)
Apparently.

The back of the bus is still on the bus, ain't it?
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Old 12-11-2008, 06:41 PM   #659
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I thought it was awesome...

I'm sure Lila will be along shortly to post a clip

I especially like John's arguments about using the "tradition" of marriage as a defense being weak since things like polygamy used to be accepted and interracial marriages used to be discouraged.

His line about how a person can chose their religion but not chose their sexuality was spot on as well
elfa I searched Daily Show, not Jon Stewart, otherwise I wouldn't have posted. I hadn't read this page either, my bad.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:47 PM   #660
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I thought that Jon Stewart 100% completely owned Huckabee in that interview. He owned the whole anti-gay-marriage argument. Fan-fucking-tastic.




Is there a single gay person who has argued that marriage should only be between a man and a woman? See, if the argument is truly based 100% on logic, then there should be no problem at all finding a gay person to agree with the argument. Logic, after all, is not exclusive to straight people. If there truly is no bias whatsoever in the anti-gay-marriage argument, then there must be at least one gay person who who can champion the logic.



Where is that person?
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