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Old 12-09-2008, 06:46 PM   #571
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Can you tell me why you want to withhold democratic rights from American citizens?

Be specific.
The democratic rights of citizens do not extend to withholding civil rights from other citizens. Or did you support Prop 14 in California in 1963?
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:47 PM   #572
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oh, aren't you cute.
I like to think so.

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you're the one arguing against the legalization of gay marriage.
So read my past posts. They more than adequately state my position, which I've argued meticulously in the past. I don't dodge.

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to answer yours: the right to vote away existing civil rights from a specific, targeted class of American citizens seems to me to be not a part of democracy.
To which I respond (as I have in the past): the right to redefine marriage has not been declared a civil right. The MN SC opinion in Baker v. Nelson in 1972 made this clear. (Since upheld by Hernandez v Robles, among others.)

However, the right to vote is a civil right, and one of the defining rights of a democracy. And it was one that in the past was indeed withheld from blacks, the Irish, Catholics, women, etc. So I'm surprised that anyone would want to take us back 100 years.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:49 PM   #573
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These articles are great, they perfectly illustrate how the subjectivity of scripture can justify any position

What is even better is that people think it should have any impact on how your laws are made
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:51 PM   #574
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The democratic rights of citizens do not extend to withholding civil rights from other citizens. Or did you support Prop 14 in California in 1963?
I wasn't alive back in 1963. But I can sure say that marriage as gay rights advocates would like to define it hasn't yet been decided as a civil right....
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:51 PM   #575
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I don't think you're going to get a real answer.


but isn't it the heart of the issue?

if you're against same-sex marriage, it's because there's something so fundamentally different between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages that one deserves a set of protections that the other is not privy to (because they're different, right?).

i want to know -- what protections to straights need that gays should be denied?

and you know what's crazy?

i can think of something.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:52 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I like to think so.



So read my past posts. They more than adequately state my position, which I've argued meticulously in the past. I don't dodge.



To which I respond (as I have in the past): the right to redefine marriage has not been declared a civil right. The MN SC opinion in Baker v. Nelson in 1972 made this clear.

However, the right to vote is a civil right, and one of the defining rights of a democracy. And it was one that in the past was indeed withheld from blacks, the Irish, Catholics, women, etc. So I'm surprised that anyone would want to take us back 100 years.
How does gay marriage take away any of your rights?

How does it deny you heterosexual marriage?
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:53 PM   #577
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No real answer yet.

No surprise.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:54 PM   #578
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So read my past posts. They more than adequately state my position, which I've argued meticulously in the past. I don't dodge.
you're dodging the question right now.

i'll repeat:

nathan, could you tell me what marital rights should be withheld from gay couples, and why?

be specific.




Quote:
To which I respond (as I have in the past): the right to redefine marriage has not been declared a civil right. The MN SC opinion in Baker v. Nelson in 1972 made this clear.

do you see the irony of using a SC opinion as a reference point here?


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However, the right to vote is a civil right, and one of the defining rights of a democracy. And it was one that in the past was indeed withheld from blacks, the Irish, Catholics, women, etc. So I'm surprised that anyone would want to take us back 100 years.

so is the protection of the rights of the minority. we don't vote on any old issue. the right to vote doesn't mean you get to vote on the price of milk, whether or not to invade Iraq, or whether Jews should be forbidden from marrying gentiles.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:55 PM   #579
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What is even better is that people think it should have any impact on how your laws are made


the Founding Fathers believe that it should.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:59 PM   #580
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This is why I hate having the religious left around, they make faith-based politics mainstream; any issue from gay marriage to charity goes back to rereading bronze age myths.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:01 PM   #581
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However, the right to vote is a civil right, and one of the defining rights of a democracy. And it was one that in the past was indeed withheld from blacks, the Irish, Catholics, women, etc. So I'm surprised that anyone would want to take us back 100 years.
But, by the logic of some, everybody has an equal right not to vote (just like gays have an equal right to marry a member of the opposite sex).
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:06 PM   #582
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I certainly hope you're not calling me a hatemongering bigot.
I was obviously referring to the author of the article you posted.

Just pointing out that it was hardly an objective source. As all hatemongering articles are not.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:07 PM   #583
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How does gay marriage take away any of your rights?

How does it deny you heterosexual marriage?


i think the central point is that gay marriage removes the primacy and superiority of heterosexual marriage. it predicates and equality between heterosexual and homosexual relationships, or rather, that the gender of the individuals involved in a relationship is no longer of primary importance, or, rather, that gender is not a category upon which one can impose a restriction.

it's really a gender issue. but then, so is homophobia.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:17 PM   #584
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How does gay marriage take away any of your rights?

How does it deny you heterosexual marriage?
You mean how does a lobby that seeks to overturn the democratic process for all take away my rights?

Hmmmm.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:21 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
Just pointing out that it was hardly an objective source. As all hatemongering articles are not.
An article that explores the Bible in context of both language and content is hatemongering?
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