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Old 11-09-2008, 07:33 AM   #31
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What I don't understand is that it's been legal for same sex individuals to marry in California. Suddenly that right has been withdrawn? Yet across the country there are some states in which same sex marriage is legalized? Make it equal across the states either way, yet if it's been legal and recognized already in some areas then it's only fair to make it so country-wide. Personally I don't have much faith in the union of marriage (messy divorce after 20 yrs of marriage here) but I believe it should be fair for same sexes to marry.
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Old 11-09-2008, 08:33 AM   #32
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I'm assuming Prop 8 is denying same-sex marriage? Only in California or all America? Is it legal or not at the moment?

I'd have no idea where I stand on this issue; for one I suppose the very essence of marriage is the love between a man and a woman, and a lot of dictionaries state it thus, and I think the traditionalists would want it kept that way. But in the end, really, it's just a couple of signatures, is it not? And I mean what would change majorly? If you're in a committed relationship, a marriage is really just a few signatures recognising the relationship. It's just an extra step. To deny gays that right, when you look at it simply, does seem a bit preposterous to me.

Earlier this year, the Supreme Court of California ruled that, based on the state's constitution, same-sex marriage rights could not be denied by the state. So, thousands of same-sex couples took advantage of their rights and wed.

Opposition to same-sex marriage created a ballot initiative called "Proposition 8," which bans same-sex marriage, without anything to put in its place as far as civil unions or something. It was primarily funded by a few individuals and the LDS church.

Those against Proposition 8 (the "No on 8" campaign) are against the banning of civil rights.

Those for Proposition 8 believe a couple of things:

1. It's very, very complicated. Extremely complex.
2. Re-defining a word is too much time and effort.
3. They're certainly not bigots.
4. This could mean that homosexuality is taught in schools!
5. A man and a woman will always, in every case, raise a child better than a gay couple because that's how it's always been. K-Fed and Britney will be a better parental couple than Irvine and Memphis.
6. Gay parents could turn their adopted kids gay too!
7. Really, they're not bigots. We're serious. It's too complex for them to be bigots.
8. Think of the children!

So, "Yes on 8" won with scare mongering, and, no more gay couples can wed in California. It's yet to be determined whether or not the rest of them will be nullified or not. Legal battles will ensue.
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:49 AM   #33
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Given that the religious so often insist that atheism is a religion perhaps I should put myself forward for some tax exemption.
Look up the Duggar family. They're basically two evangelicals who don't believe in birth control and have 17 or 18 children and the woman is pregnant again. They raise their kids like it's a hundred years ago, with the girls basically doing all the work in the house and dress them like it's 50 years ago. Really very troubling, of course they're home schooled and so on. But they make TV shows constantly.

Anyway, they declared themselves a church since they have enough people for it and so they pay no property taxes on their massive house or the land.

So you may be on to something.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:17 AM   #34
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Old 11-09-2008, 12:21 PM   #35
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Look up the Duggar family. They're basically two evangelicals who don't believe in birth control and have 17 or 18 children and the woman is pregnant again. They raise their kids like it's a hundred years ago, with the girls basically doing all the work in the house and dress them like it's 50 years ago. Really very troubling, of course they're home schooled and so on. But they make TV shows constantly.

Anyway, they declared themselves a church since they have enough people for it and so they pay no property taxes on their massive house or the land.

So you may be on to something.
Really? I've seen that family on shows at least a few times, but had no idea they had declared themselves a church. That's absolutely ridiculous, and to me, gives yet another reason why churches shouldn't be allowed tax-exempt status just based on the fact that they are a church.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:37 PM   #36
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Those against Proposition 8 (the "No on 8" campaign) are against the banning of civil rights.
You mean civil rights like having every vote count? Voter disenfranchisement wasn't cool in 2000. Why is it cool in 2008?

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Those for Proposition 8 believe a couple of things:
Gosh, thanks for putting words in our mouths. How even-handed.

Here's some stuff to chew on:

Prop 8 voters supported:

1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.
2. Separation of church and state.
3. Freedom of speech.
4. The freedom of a self-governed society to decide whether it's going to redefine a core social value.
5. Thousands of years of tradition.

You're right, we're all crazy hate-mongers with wacky ideas.

And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:42 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Gosh, thanks for putting words in our mouths. How even-handed.

Here's some stuff to chew on:

Prop 8 voters supported:

1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.
2. Separation of church and state.
3. Freedom of speech.
4. The freedom of a self-governed society to decide whether it's going to redefine a core social value.
5. Thousands of years of tradition.

You're right, we're all crazy hate-mongers with wacky ideas.

And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
Separation of church and state, really? Like imposing religious values (marriage is only for a man and woman) upon the rest of society?

I wasn't knocking the Duggars, only commenting on the ridiculousness of them becoming their own church. And, comparing them to NAMBLA is just as ridiculous.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:49 PM   #38
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You mean civil rights like having every vote count? Voter disenfranchisement wasn't cool in 2000. Why is it cool in 2008?



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2. Separation of church and state.
You're kidding, right?
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:00 PM   #39
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I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.
Only if every Christian straight man who ever fucked a little girl for kicks can be brought up.

You are treading on dangerous and ugly ground. It won't do you any good to take this road. Get off it now before you are sorry you started it. That's not a threat; it's a reminder that there are more examples of straight men fucking children than gay men.

And I will bring up every one if you want me to.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:02 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Prop 8 voters supported:

1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.

You do realize this was already the law in California, right?
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:07 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
And if you guys are going to start knocking the Duggars and setting K-Fed and Britney as the standard for heterosexual marriage, I'd like to re-open the conversation about NAMBLA, if you don't mind.


as has been noted, this is not just a stretch, but a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue.

if you're going to limit marriage solely to heterosexuals -- and, by your own definition, parenthood, because, according to you, the only reason to get married is to have children -- then you must be willing to stand by Britney and K-Fed as, by definition, superior parents to any and all gay parents, like Varitek's parents.

NAMBLA is a fringe-of-the-fringe organization that has no mainstream support that seeks to change age-of-consent laws, much like NORMAL seeks to change drug laws. NAMBLA is free to exist as an advocacy organization, like anyone else who wishes to change the law -- like Warren Jeffs, who really wants to fuck and marry lots of 14 year old girls -- but should they violate the law, they will be tossed into jail just like anyone else.

and so, Nathan, you really do belie your protestations about bigotry when you bring up fucking NAMBLA.

if someone were to assume my support of NAMBLA, or even to associate me with the group or ask that i answer and account for them simply because i am gay, i'd break their nose.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:12 PM   #42
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4. The freedom of a self-governed society to decide whether it's going to redefine a core social value.

it's about rights, nathan. it's about equal treatment under the law. your values will in no way be impacted should a couple of guys in West Hollywood get to visit each other in the hospital and put each other on a life insurance policy.

though perhaps you view cruelty as a core social value? because that's the only value i've seen reinforced with Prop 8 -- the longstanding, time tested, thousand-year history of, "there are people out there who are different from us, so we must make sure that they know that we are better than them."



Quote:
5. Thousands of years of tradition.

You're right, we're all crazy hate-mongers with wacky ideas.

thousands of years of slavery ... thousands of years of pederasty ... thousands of years of polygamy ... thousands of years of beating your wife because she displeases you ... thousands of years of war for the control of resources ... thousands of years of genocide ...
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:14 PM   #43
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1. Parental notification rights when it comes to discussions of sexuality in school.


do you think it's possible, nathan, to talk about gay people without talking about sex?
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:36 PM   #44
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What was the total vote tally of Prop 8 in Calif?

How many millions for the measure, how many against?

<>
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:43 PM   #45
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What was the total vote tally of Prop 8 in Calif?

How many millions for the measure, how many against?

<>


Quote:
with 95 percent of precincts reporting Wednesday, the ban had 5,125,752 votes, or 52 percent, while there were 4,725,313 votes, or 48 percent, opposed.

California Gay Marriage Banned As Proposition 8 Passes
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