martha
Blue Crack Supplier
The democratic rights of citizens do not extend to withholding civil rights from other citizens. Or did you support Prop 14 in California in 1963?
Proposition 8 discussion continued
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The democratic rights of citizens do not extend to withholding civil rights from other citizens. Or did you support Prop 14 in California in 1963?
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I like to think so.
So read my past posts. They more than adequately state my position, which I've argued meticulously in the past. I don't dodge.
To which I respond (as I have in the past): the right to redefine marriage has not been declared a civil right. The MN SC opinion in Baker v. Nelson in 1972 made this clear. (Since upheld by Hernandez v Robles, among others.)
However, the right to vote is a civil right, and one of the defining rights of a democracy. And it was one that in the past was indeed withheld from blacks, the Irish, Catholics, women, etc. So I'm surprised that anyone would want to take us back 100 years.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
These articles are great, they perfectly illustrate how the subjectivity of scripture can justify any position 
What is even better is that people think it should have any impact on how your laws are made
What is even better is that people think it should have any impact on how your laws are made
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I wasn't alive back in 1963. But I can sure say that marriage as gay rights advocates would like to define it hasn't yet been decided as a civil right....
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
but isn't it the heart of the issue?
if you're against same-sex marriage, it's because there's something so fundamentally different between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages that one deserves a set of protections that the other is not privy to (because they're different, right?).
i want to know -- what protections to straights need that gays should be denied?
and you know what's crazy?
i can think of something.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
How does gay marriage take away any of your rights?
How does it deny you heterosexual marriage?
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
No real answer yet. 
No surprise.
No surprise.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
you're dodging the question right now.
i'll repeat:
nathan, could you tell me what marital rights should be withheld from gay couples, and why?
be specific.
do you see the irony of using a SC opinion as a reference point here?
so is the protection of the rights of the minority. we don't vote on any old issue. the right to vote doesn't mean you get to vote on the price of milk, whether or not to invade Iraq, or whether Jews should be forbidden from marrying gentiles.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
What is even better is that people think it should have any impact on how your laws are made
the Founding Fathers believe that it should.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
This is why I hate having the religious left around, they make faith-based politics mainstream; any issue from gay marriage to charity goes back to rereading bronze age myths.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
But, by the logic of some, everybody has an equal right not to vote (just like gays have an equal right to marry a member of the opposite sex).
toscano
Refugee
- Joined
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I was obviously referring to the author of the article you posted.
Just pointing out that it was hardly an objective source. As all hatemongering articles are not.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
i think the central point is that gay marriage removes the primacy and superiority of heterosexual marriage. it predicates and equality between heterosexual and homosexual relationships, or rather, that the gender of the individuals involved in a relationship is no longer of primary importance, or, rather, that gender is not a category upon which one can impose a restriction.
it's really a gender issue. but then, so is homophobia.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
You mean how does a lobby that seeks to overturn the democratic process for all take away my rights?
Hmmmm.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
An article that explores the Bible in context of both language and content is hatemongering?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
So you would have defended the bigots in 63?
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
You haven't identified the right which is being taken away.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
No, I'm not. I'm not bothering to rehash a discussion that was had a while ago. Those who have eyes to see and mouses to click, can read.
So who gets to decide on who has the right to vote? Shouldn't the citizenry? CA voters concerned about a matter of serious social and cultural impact got the requisite number of signatures to get an item on the ballot. They followed the legal process...but I guess you'd like to bring that process under review now too?
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Why doesn't the Gay community sponser a bill to have "GCU"s to have the same benefits as marriage and call it a day?
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
good gosh, nathan. what a strawman.
for someone who says he doesn't dodge, you've learned quickly.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
you've never enumerated the rights that heteros should have and that homos should be denied.
i want to know which ones, and why.
should VA have voted in 1967 on the Loving marriage?
do you really think that all issues should be decided at the ballot box?
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
how come homos act like 3 yr olds when a vote doesn't go their way, but straights deal w it?
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Why doesn't the Gay community sponser a bill to have "GCU"s to have the same benefits as marriage and call it a day?
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Ignoring the rather glaring 'separate but equal' situation that would create, it is my understanding that the Mormon church would oppose such a bill (why would they want to give equal rights to people they believe are actively engaging in sinful behavior?).
Time for your honesty cap, diamond: would you go against the church and vote in favor of such a bill?
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yolland
Forum Moderator
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What was the problem with racially segregated drinking fountains? It was all the same water supply; no one was denied the right to drink.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
first off gays have never been segregated from drinking fountains.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
What was the problem with racially segregated drinking fountains? It was all the same water supply; no one was denied the right to drink.
it doesn't matter if you're in the front or the back of the bus.
you'll arrive at your destination at the same time.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
yet you Mormons somehow found the gumption to beg to be taken seriously as a religion.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
when are gays sent to different bathrooms, segregated sections of schools, buses or restaurants?
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