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Old 11-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #256
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Thankyou for presenting a very neo-con point of view

I support it
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:38 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
What...the "hypocrisy" of the tolerance movement is that they should tolerate intolerance? Conservatives, once upon a time, cited this contradiction as the fallacy of postmodernism and its influence on liberalism. But now I see conservatives playing the same fallacy themselves, now that outrage is being directed at them, rather than Islam.

But, frankly, I'm inclined to agree with the former. We should not tolerate intolerance, and, instead, champion the ideals of freedom and equality. Those who stand in the way should rightly be criticized; religious bigotry does not enjoy immunity from criticism!



it seems that modern conservatives, like Ms. Sarah Palin, believe that free speech means the right to say whatever you want and not be criticized.

it's not.

and it's funny how the intolerants want their bogus, scientifically discredited views -- homosexuality is a choice, jesus rode dinosaurs -- not just tolerated, but actually embraced because if we do anything less than fully endorse and defend not just their right to believe nonsense, but the nonsense itself, then we're religiously intolerant.

it seems to me, diamond, to point out another line that you've stolen from any odd right wing pundit, that it's not liberalism that's a mental disorder ...
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:20 PM   #258
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Hey, if I actually saw a legitimate argument for Proposition 8, I'd be willing to "tolerate" it.

But I've yet to seen one, and I doubt one exists.

Nathan, INDY, diamond ... ball's in your court.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:37 PM   #259
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The people of California spoke in 1964


Quote:
The initiative, numbered Proposition 14 when it was certified for the ballot, was to add an amendment to the constitution of California. This amendment would provide, in part, as follows:

"Neither the State nor any subdivision or agency thereof shall deny, limit or abridge, directly or indirectly, the right of any person, who is willing or desires to sell, lease or rent any part or all of his real property, to decline to sell, lease or rent such property to such person or persons as he, in his absolute discretion, chooses."
The initiative proved to be overwhelmingly popular, and was passed by a 65% majority vote in the 1964 California elections.


The argument was that a person's home was their castle
and the government had no right telling them to whom they could or could not sell their property.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:20 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by phillyfan26 View Post
Hey, if I actually saw a legitimate argument for Proposition 8, I'd be willing to "tolerate" it.

But I've yet to seen one, and I doubt one exists.

Nathan, INDY, diamond ... ball's in your court.
the oppoents of the prop are trying to say it is an argument against homosexuality-when in it's not.

they've made great leaps of illogic to redefine the intent of the prop and have become intolerant haters and monsters that they so despise in the process.


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Old 11-14-2008, 08:26 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
the oppoents of the prop are trying to say it is an argument against homosexuality-when in it's not.

they've made great leaps of illogic to redefine the intent of the prop and have become intolerant haters and monsters that they so despise in the process.


<>
It is indeed an argument against homosexuality. At the very core of the arguments for Prop 8 was the message that homosexuality is wrong and exposing your children to it would be dangerous and lead to bad things.

As for becoming intolerant: bigotry should not be tolerated.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:31 PM   #262
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the oppoents of the prop are trying to say it is an argument against homosexuality-when in it's not.
Then what was it?
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:36 PM   #263
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It's a definitive statement on marriage, plain and simple.


It's not a law against same sex attraction, same sex unions or their rights.


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Old 11-14-2008, 09:12 PM   #264
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It's a definitive statement on marriage, plain and simple.


It's not a law against ... their rights.
But, when you take away someone's access to a right that you have access to, how can you say it's not about rights?
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:32 PM   #265
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That access was assumed by judges that imposed their will on citizens.

The people said no.

More importantly if you want to try and change minds, opposers of Prop 8 are going about it the wrong way.

Here's an article I found. I don't agree w it totally but agree w the substance contained therein:

Quote:
Just A Quick Note To The People Who Are Using Childish Tantrums To Protest Proposition 8

You’re not doing yourselves or your cause any favors by acting the way you are.

Do you honestly think that by ripping a cross out of a little old lady’s hand and pushing her around you brought anyone around to your point of view ? I mean, there are probably a lot of people out there who are on the fence about the gay marriage issue and your mob mentality and thuggish behavior won’t help to tug them down on your side.

What did you hope to accomplish with your little display at the church in Lansing, Michigan this past weekend? You didn’t show yourselves to be honest citizens who are trying to achieve acceptance. You showed yourselves to be childish and immature, and you showed that you have absolutely no regard for the rights of others, yet you expect them to hand you special rights on a silver platter.

I also find it interesting that since you’ve discovered that blacks and Latinos overwhelmingly voted against same sex marriage, racial epithets are being thrown about by your little crew. Nice. Your philosophy is obvious: If I can’t get my way I’ll call you names. Nanny nanny boo-boo.

By the way, about all the effort that it took to invade that church in Lansing and all the passion you put into the disruption of a church service where people were minding their own business: why haven’t you utilized those same organizational skills to invade and disrupt one of the large black churches in California, or a Latino Catholic service in East L.A.? You’re mad at those people, too, right?

I know why, and so do you. And I don’t even need to spell it out.

And now you’re sending a white powder to the Mormon church. Very nice. The very people who scream “hate crime” at the slightest whiff of disagreement are resorting to the use of terrorism tactics because most people just don’t agree with their political agenda.

So.....keep throwing your tantrums. Keep screaming and threatening and howling to the moon, but remember this - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you’ve very lucky those to whom your hatred is directed will, unlike you, abide by the rule of law and not by the rule of the mob like you do. You’ll lose and keep losing at the ballot box as long as you keep acting like spoiled, over-privileged children.

If you’re not lucky people may start responding in kind. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that your continued hostility will cause the very people you need to vote for your cause to react to you the way you’re acting toward them now. Your histrionics may cause more violence and then you’ll don the mantle of victimhood once more. It’s a card you’re good at playing.

I’m hoping that doesn’t happen. That you won’t push things to the point where lives are destroyed just because you didn’t get your way.

Want to win people over? Want people to see things your way or at least be more accepting?

Try growing up and acting like adults. You just might be surprised at the results.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:50 PM   #266
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So in 4 or 8 years when the demographics shift further and the people legalize gay marriage by ballot, are you going to happily embrace this democratic process?

Because it is certain to happen. You are losing to time. Every day, you lose a little.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:51 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
That access was assumed by judges that imposed their will on citizens.

The people said no.

More importantly if you want to try and change minds, opposers of Prop 8 are going about it the wrong way.

Here's an article I found. I don't agree w it totally but agree w the substance contained therein:
You didn't answer my question.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:53 PM   #268
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So in 4 or 8 years when the demographics shift further and the people legalize gay marriage by ballot, are you going to happily embrace this democratic process?

.
I will honor and respect the law and not mistreat those that have mistreated citizens that have respectfully disagreed w them.

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Old 11-14-2008, 11:57 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
citizens that have respectfully disagreed w them.

If by respectfully, you mean take away rights and then lie about what those rights actually mean, then ok, we can agree.

And you still didn't answer my question.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:59 PM   #270
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You didn't answer my question.
they assumed they had access to a right; a right to change the meaning of a word erroneously led on by certain judges, but the people said no.

asisde from that, their civil union rights will not and have be stripped from them: when they have been-let us know.


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