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Old 11-13-2008, 06:09 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Snap!

1. Mormons make up less than 2 percent of the population of California. There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.Mormon voters were less than 5 percent of the yes vote.

2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6 percent of the yes vote and 2.4 percent of the total Proposition 8 vote.

3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.

4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.

5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.

7. African-Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70 percent of black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.

8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).

9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims -- all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.

10. Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or herself. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.

11. The church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States' Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?" The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out
on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do -- we spoke up, we campaigned and we voted.



These are my personal opinions and thoughts; any errors are mine and in no way reflect official church policy or doctrine.

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Old 11-13-2008, 06:44 AM   #197
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1 million diamonds typing at 1 million typewriters have produced post identical to Kevin Hamilton's letter published in an Orson Scott Card article from the Mormon Times.
Quote:
Kevin Hamilton's Letter on Proposition 8 and the Mormon Church

Dear Friends,

In the aftermath of the recent election, we may find ourselves oddly on the defensive regarding our support for the Yes on Proposition 8 cause. Our young people have been especially subject to mean-spirited comments by high school friends and teachers. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We did nothing wrong. In fact, we did everything that a civic-minded American can and should do. I have put together a few facts that help me to appreciate our position better. For example:

1. Mormons make up less than 2 percent of the population of California. There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.Mormon voters were less than 5 percent of the yes vote.

2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6 percent of the yes vote and 2.4 percent of the total Proposition 8 vote.

3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.

4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.

5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.

7. African-Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70 percent of black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.

8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).

9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims -- all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.

10. Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or herself. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.

11. The church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States' Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?" The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out

on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do -- we spoke up, we campaigned and we voted.

Hold your heads up high -- you did a great job on this most important cause. We will have more opportunities in the future to participate in our democratic process. Let's remember the lessons learned and do an even better job next time.

These are my personal opinions and thoughts; any errors are mine and in no way reflect official church policy or doctrine.

Thanks,
Kevin Hamilton
MormonTimes - Heroes and victims in Prop. 8 struggle

Can people please remember this when a certain poster criticises Joe Biden over plagarism.

As far as Kevin Hamilton goes he brushes over the influence that the Mormons exerted in the campaign.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:50 AM   #198
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Aww, diamond, you couldn't even come up with your own personal opinions and thoughts? That's pitiful.
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:42 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
These are my personal opinions and thoughts; any errors are mine and in no way reflect official church policy or doctrine.

<>
WE

ARE

A

COLLECTIVE

ZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:57 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
1 million diamonds typing at 1 million typewriters have produced post identical to Kevin Hamilton's letter published in an Orson Scott Card article from the Mormon Times.MormonTimes - Heroes and victims in Prop. 8 struggle

Nice detective work!

It was the use of the word "spectrum" which made me all


And the denials of church involvement are disingenuous anyway; the local Mormon churches were handing about buckets of Yes on 8 signs. AT CHURCH.
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:27 AM   #201
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Caught plagerizing again?!

Ouch!!!

That's like, what the fourth time in recent months?
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
You've been presenting yourself as having no problems with gay and lesbian people, just whether their legally formalized relationships could ever fulfill the ideals you feel are conveyed by the word 'marriage'...and yet, here you're citing as supporting arguments articles that clearly aren't about that at all, but rather about parents who object to their children merely hearing it acknowledged in school that men who love men and women who love women exist.
And we're surprised why?
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:33 AM   #203
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Aww, diamond, you couldn't even come up with your own personal opinions and thoughts?
And we're surprised why?
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:37 AM   #204
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And we're surprised why?
I didn't say I was surprised. I just thought it was pitiful.
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:41 AM   #205
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I didn't say I was surprised. I just thought it was pitiful.
It wasn't directed at you, specifically. Just a general observation.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:17 AM   #206
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There's an LDS backlash ? Hmmm, wonder why ?

I guess that plan to ingratiate themsleves with the real christian world had a nasty side-effect eh ? Awww....too bad.

The irony is to die for.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:20 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Ask the Wirthlins in MA. Or the Parkers in MA. Or parents in Hayward, CA. Or parents of Brookline High students.

Schools ask court to dismiss suit over homosexuality discussions - Boston.com
School holds surprise 'Gay' Day for kindergartners
GLSEN Conference and Little Black Book


Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Robin Wirthlin (of the Boston Globe story you linked) on CNN, April 4 2006, explaining why she objected to the King & King storybook being read to her children: "My problem is that this issue of romantic attraction between two men is being presented to my 7-year-old as wonderful, and good and the way things should be."

Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute (from the WorldNetDaily article): "they want to push the gay lifestyle on kindergartners." (The "lifestyle push" in question involved a kindergarten teacher reading to her students then having them sign a pledge stating: “I am taking a stand for a safe and harassment-free school for all students, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression. As an ally, I pledge to not use anti-LGBT language or slurs.” Which, as one might suspect from the vocabulary, was intended for junior high students, no other grade schoolers signed it, and the school has apologized to parents for the error.)

The Brookline High incident (see here for a far less hysterical article from the Boston Globe) involved an outside community health organization mistakenly leaving about 10 copies of a safe-sex pamphlet intended for gay men ages 18-up on a table where they'd displayed other (age-appropriate) materials, at a conference on gay and lesbian issues for staff and students held at the school (on a Saturday, so obviously not a mandatory event).

So nathan, the poor choices of a few teachers on behalf of a tax-paying, law-abiding group of people is grounds to remove that tax-paying, law-abiding group of people from Constitutional protection?

Next time a Christian teacher makes a poor choice in the classroom, I'll keep this in mind.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:31 AM   #208
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so, there are nationwide protests in the process of being organized this weekend.

Join the Impact - Protest Prop 8 on November 15th!

the issue i'm having is that as much as we'd like to protest, we've committed to doing volunteer service this weekend helping elderly, poor-er people winterize their homes so they spend less on heating this winter. still, we thought about how this protest is a good sign that Prop 8 just might be the big kick in the ass that the gay equality movement needs, a time for all those who support the dignity of gay relationships to make themselves known on a national level. while i don't think a protest, in and of itself, ever makes a difference, there is certainly value to the visual impact of any protest and the way to make that impact is simply by putting bodies in the streets (and then hopefully said bodies go home determined to do more).

however, after talking about it last night, Memphis and i thought that an even more effective means of fighting this battle would be not to protest, but to go ahead with our volunteer work. the best thing we can do with other people is simply to share our lives in simple, uncomplicated ways to remove the patina of "otherness" to gay people and gay relationships. being out and open and totally comfortable with yourselves -- and this can take years of hard work for many gay people -- and then sharing that with other people is, imho, the best thing that gay people can do to further their causes.

it's clear that when we think that things like MassResistance or WorldNetDaily are legitimate news sources that gay people obviously have more work to do, since such sensationalistic lies would never have any sort of sway in the mind of anyone who had spent any time with gay couples. if you actually knew gay people and knew their lives, you wouldn't be so gullible as to believe that child sex tourism in Thailand is a mainstream activity for most homos. you wouldn't believe that 6 year olds are going to be learning about water-based lubricants.

so that's what we're going to do. and that's how it's going to continue to happen.

we -- the collective "we" -- will simply have to hold up a mirror to the nonsense and bigotry that's thrown at us.

love and logic keep us clear. reason is on our side.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:21 AM   #209
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Yet another collective.

There are several protests planned in Miami tomorrow too. I'll be watching the news for sure. I had a bunch of gay friends on facebook who had the saddest status updates on November 5th amidst all the happy ones.
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:00 AM   #210
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Join the Impact - my daughters and I will be there in Sacramento sometime during the rally on Saturday. Looking forward to it.

On another Sacramento note, the artistic director of California Musical Theatre, our fabulous theatre company that brings us all the touring productions and so much more has resigned amid threats of boycott. He donated $1,000 to the Yes on 8 campaign and none other than Marc Shaiman said that no more of his musicals could be produced here. While of course I disagree with the position of the artistic director, I'm saddened that he was forced to resign from his position. The director made clear that the CMT does not share the views of the AD and a boycott would have hurt many more than just the AD. I'm very proud of Sacramento's theatre community, how many local theatres we have and the professional productions we get because of CMT. I don't agree that someone should have lost their job because they disagree on this issue.
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