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Old 11-18-2011, 04:42 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
I keep an open mind about the right, mostly because I believe in fiscal conservatism in general and the fact that many things should be state issues and not national ones.

It's just a shame you have to have those two reasonable ideals bundled together with wacky, antiquated/exclusionary/discriminatory social policies, hysterical anti-government fervour, anti-immigrant bias for whatever the group of the day to pick on is (right now it's Mexis, in 20 years we will have moved on fully to browner folks like Muslims, and (let's face it) a little bit of historical racial prejudice lingering around in the bottom of the conservative well somewhere.
Well, true. Notwithstanding the tenor of some my rants on here recently, I still don't consider myself part of "the left". But, I definitely don't want to be associated with "the right" either. (even the comparatively middle-of-the-road soft right of European politics).

Being part of either seems to involve signing up to a set of ideologies that in some cases I find just plain bizarre.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:18 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
Can you post a few facts to back that statement?

Yeah, those Tea Party radicals caused a lot of trouble.



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Old 11-18-2011, 06:30 PM   #453
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Please. I think the Occupiers had the right idea (Wall Street needs to be accountable more than the government) but went about it the wrong way.

College isn't a blessing. Blessings don't come with tens of thousands of dollars of debt.
You're expected to be in debt from the day you turn 18 until the day you die. If you don't want to go to college, then you have little to no hope of landing a job in the corporate world, education or pretty much anything else.. Trade school you say? They're the same. My brother did that and racked up a ton of debt. Manufacturing or factory work? Good luck!


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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
i get the idea, and i'm angered myself... i just never saw the point of sitting in a park freezing your butt off without any end game
It brings attention to their problems with the current system, would give the politicians a kick in the ass, and hopefully would act as a way for the movement to solidify behind a platform. They really need a leader to step forward.

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it's just so typical of the left.

the problem with the American left is that it's a tenuously held together coalition of groups who have different historical grievances but little else in common. it's much harder to get them to effectively protest anything, especially when opposed to the right, which is a group of similar people bound together by imagined fears and longing for a past that ever existed.
Well said.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:06 PM   #454
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I would classify myself as probably a mixed up centrist when it comes to fiscal and social policies. I would be fairly to the right when it comes to some tax issues (inheritance tax I find crappy, and I am not the greatest fan of council tax.) I believe in getting good value for tax payers money, efficiently run public services for instance. I am a huge fan of socialised medicine though (I do work for the NHS), but I see healthcare as a basic human right which should be covered by the state, I do not see how introducing competition works or benefits something like healthcare, I believe it should be better run but I don't believe that goes hand in hand with introducing more market ethics to it.

The way we spend so much on the military in the west, on new ways of killing people...I just don't get it, we only ever seem to bother with the weak powers in our democracy expeditions...it's macho posturing and a way of justifying programmes like Trident here in the UK on new nuclear submarines which just aren't needed when cuts are being made every where else.

The absolute moral faith in 'markets' is something I can never wrap my head around, and the idea that I keep hearing in the UK at least that we should become more like China 'less lazy, work longer blah blah blah' is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard, as it implies we should basically disregard human rights.

I've found myself angrier that i've ever felt at how badly states are run for the interests of the few. I don't want to destroy capitalism, I want it to benefit more people. The market is not God, it is not inherently a force of good or bad, but may have either affect, it's how we currently employ it that is so messed up at disenfranchising many good people. A revolution of sorts may be needed, as it is hard to imagine any of our current lot of politicians having the nerve or will to make some much needed changes.

I fear i'm rambling. I feel passionately about much of this especially in regards to healthcare issues and what not. I kinda support the Occupy movement but like many of them I struggle with what should be done other than a sort of revolutionary political movement. I know one of the main things would be to end the power of lobbying and campaign finance, but it would take a huge change in some politicians stances around the worlds. Apologies just back from a busy late shift at the hospital, mind a bit frazzled.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:25 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post
I would classify myself as probably a mixed up centrist when it comes to fiscal and social policies. I would be fairly to the right when it comes to some tax issues (inheritance tax I find crappy, and I am not the greatest fan of council tax.) I believe in getting good value for tax payers money, efficiently run public services for instance. I am a huge fan of socialised medicine though (I do work for the NHS), but I see healthcare as a basic human right which should be covered by the state, I do not see how introducing competition works or benefits something like healthcare, I believe it should be better run but I don't believe that goes hand in hand with introducing more market ethics to it.

The way we spend so much on the military in the west, on new ways of killing people...I just don't get it, we only ever seem to bother with the weak powers in our democracy expeditions...it's macho posturing and a way of justifying programmes like Trident here in the UK on new nuclear submarines which just aren't needed when cuts are being made every where else.

The absolute moral faith in 'markets' is something I can never wrap my head around, and the idea that I keep hearing in the UK at least that we should become more like China 'less lazy, work longer blah blah blah' is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard, as it implies we should basically disregard human rights.

I've found myself angrier that i've ever felt at how badly states are run for the interests of the few. I don't want to destroy capitalism, I want it to benefit more people. The market is not God, it is not inherently a force of good or bad, but may have either affect, it's how we currently employ it that is so messed up at disenfranchising many good people. A revolution of sorts may be needed, as it is hard to imagine any of our current lot of politicians having the nerve or will to make some much needed changes.

I fear i'm rambling. I feel passionately about much of this especially in regards to healthcare issues and what not. I kinda support the Occupy movement but like many of them I struggle with what should be done other than a sort of revolutionary political movement. I know one of the main things would be to end the power of lobbying and campaign finance, but it would take a huge change in some politicians stances around the worlds. Apologies just back from a busy late shift at the hospital, mind a bit frazzled.


You've pretty much summed up how I feel.
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:10 PM   #456
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The eyes of the world will be on the retail sector on Black Friday. This is the time to show the 1% that it can't survive without money from the 99%!! There will be no other day to show that!
-Thescreaminghead

Yes, coming soon to your televisions and possibly your cities already drained police budgets and backlogged courts. Occupy Black Friday.

Makes sense really; you have an egocentric group of anti-capitalist/anti-consumerist radicals sensing the whole world is quickly no longer watching and is in fact turning away from their public tantrum just cause. Plus, it will be a stroll down memory lane for these folks when they once again lock arms and shout profanities and inane chants outside of a Wal*Mart? Of course now feeling the urge to "occupy" them as well.

Forum Post: Occupy Black Friday: Suggested Tactics for covert and overt Retail disobedience. | OccupyWallSt.org


This is most illuminating:

Quote:
Businesses that co-operate and openly support the Occupy movement should of course be left alone
In other words, "This is a nice business you have here. It'd be a shame if anything were to... happen to it."

I think there's a word for that.
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:12 PM   #457
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For all the talk of ineffective protests and lack of an endgame, the authorities charged with maintaining order and/or ending these protests sure have made their share of missteps. The latest exhibit in How To Grossly Overreact To Citizens Exercising Their Rights:

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Old 11-19-2011, 03:53 PM   #458
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It brings attention to their problems with the current system, would give the politicians a kick in the ass, and hopefully would act as a way for the movement to solidify behind a platform. They really need a leader to step forward.
i get that it brings attention... but i don't think this necessarily NEEDS that much attention. we all know. we are all upset. we all want action... only this, from the very start, was a movement incapable of action other than inconveniencing the people they are trying to help.

the only business that was directly effected by occupy wall street at zuccotti park were small business owners in the area who lost customers because wall street clientele stayed away. so in reality, the only people who this protest hurt were the exact same people they set out to help.

they have made it very clear that they do not want a leader. that they are a leaderless movement. there's nothing wrong with leaders, provided the leaders actually stand for the right things.

what is next? what is the endgame? how about we put people in office who don't give a shit about reelection, about political party... just about helping our nation. ya know, what the founding fathers really wanted. let's do that. let's occupy the house with elected people who are truly of the people, by the people. then, and only then, will things actually get done.
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Old 11-19-2011, 04:23 PM   #459
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And now for something a bit lighter from the OWS protests:

Drunk banker attacks:
http://youtu.be/MovUbDSECNg

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Old 11-19-2011, 05:00 PM   #460
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A leaderless movement with a clear goal would work.

A movement with strong leadership but with no clear goal could be successful (though probably more in the sense that a cult is successful)

But I don't see how a "movement" that lacks both can accomplish anything.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:17 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
i get that it brings attention... but i don't think this necessarily NEEDS that much attention. we all know. we are all upset. we all want action... only this, from the very start, was a movement incapable of action other than inconveniencing the people they are trying to help.

the only business that was directly effected by occupy wall street at zuccotti park were small business owners in the area who lost customers because wall street clientele stayed away. so in reality, the only people who this protest hurt were the exact same people they set out to help.

they have made it very clear that they do not want a leader. that they are a leaderless movement. there's nothing wrong with leaders, provided the leaders actually stand for the right things.

what is next? what is the endgame? how about we put people in office who don't give a shit about reelection, about political party... just about helping our nation. ya know, what the founding fathers really wanted. let's do that. let's occupy the house with elected people who are truly of the people, by the people. then, and only then, will things actually get done.
I don't think they're trying to get 'our' attention, i.e. the tech savvy people who get their news from a variety of resources, both online and off. They're trying to get the attention of the bankers, the CEOs, and the politicians who are running this country into the ground for their own personal gain. This should open their eyes that people are sick to death of the economy being pillaged and the government turning around and rewarding this behavior, because some companies are just 'too big to fail.' If this movement does nothing but get the Democrats to start moving back toward the left and getting some meaningful reforms enacted such as bringing back the Glass-Steagall Act and term limits enacted for both houses of Congress, then I think it would have been somewhat successful.

I think in order to elect politicians who actually pick country over party with little thought for their reelection chances, the OWS movement would have to really organize at the local level, district by district and get their candidates elected next year. That would mean that the movement is really going to have to coalesce around a central organizing body. I think term limits for both houses of Congress would also be effective. The only other way would be to tear the whole system down and start over again.

As for blocking small businesses and shitting in the streets, that's uncalled for and does nothing but hurt the image of the movement.
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Old 11-19-2011, 06:23 PM   #462
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Yes, coming soon to your televisions and possibly your cities already drained police budgets and backlogged courts. Occupy Black Friday.

Makes sense really; you have an egocentric group of anti-capitalist/anti-consumerist radicals sensing the whole world is quickly no longer watching and is in fact turning away from their public tantrum just cause. Plus, it will be a stroll down memory lane for these folks when they once again lock arms and shout profanities and inane chants outside of a Wal*Mart? Of course now feeling the urge to "occupy" them as well.

Forum Post: Occupy Black Friday: Suggested Tactics for covert and overt Retail disobedience. | OccupyWallSt.org


This is most illuminating:



In other words, "This is a nice business you have here. It'd be a shame if anything were to... happen to it."

I think there's a word for that.
Send the massage!
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:47 PM   #463
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Next course of action I believe is a move to occupy the Capitol building in DC. I think they should have done this to begin with just like in Wisconsin when the teachers, firefighters and laborers occupied the capitol building. They were a mighty force and now are on the verge recalling Gov. Walker. We need to change the laws in this nation to get the MONEY out. Campaign finace reform is the only issue. The anti-establishment has to conquer the establishment in order to change things. That's what Corporations did. They hired lobbyists to do their bidding to change the laws that screwed the American middle class over the last 30 years. This movement is the beginning I hope of changing laws through the very system that became corrupt. It's going to get very interesting in the next few months. I just hope that people keep their cool and remain non violent.

Oh, and thinking about this more, it's exactly what Bono (who started out as punk rocker, anti-establishment kid) did with the ONE Campaign. He used the system to get what he was after, aid for Africa. It's jujutsu: ability to use an attacker's force against him or herself...
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:21 PM   #464
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Next course of action I believe is a move to occupy the Capitol building in DC.
Not gonna happen, they won't even get close. The only mass Tea Party arrests (6 or 7 !!) I'm aware of were when some overzealous TPers tried to have a chat with Barney Frank in the Capital building.

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I think they should have done this to begin with just like in Wisconsin when the teachers, firefighters and laborers occupied the capitol building. They were a mighty force and now are on the verge recalling Gov. Walker. We need to change the laws in this nation to get the MONEY out.
Wisconsin Recall Elections: Record $44 Million Spent By Campaigns, Outside Groups

"We Are Wisconsin, a political action committee composed of national and Wisconsin unions, spent the most on the recalls at $10.75 million."

So my question would be does that include the money of union "teachers, firefighters and laborers"?

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Campaign finace reform is the only issue.
Debt anyone? Jobs? Getting the economy moving again. Iran. Energy.
Anyway, wasn't someone from Wisconsin involved with the last campaign finance reform?
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The anti-establishment has to conquer the establishment in order to change things.
Which would then make them the establishment if my math is correct.
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This movement is the beginning I hope of changing laws through the very system that became corrupt.
I agree here that the system needs to be reformed, not undermined.

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I just hope that people keep their cool and remain non violent.
Ooops, too late for that.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:08 AM   #465
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Not gonna happen, they won't even get close. The only mass Tea Party arrests (6 or 7 !!) I'm aware of were when some overzealous TPers tried to have a chat with Barney Frank in the Capital building.



Wisconsin Recall Elections: Record $44 Million Spent By Campaigns, Outside Groups

"We Are Wisconsin, a political action committee composed of national and Wisconsin unions, spent the most on the recalls at $10.75 million."

So my question would be does that include the money of union "teachers, firefighters and laborers"?



Debt anyone? Jobs? Getting the economy moving again. Iran. Energy.
Anyway, wasn't someone from Wisconsin involved with the last campaign finance reform?

Which would then make them the establishment if my math is correct.

I agree here that the system needs to be reformed, not undermined.


Ooops, too late for that.
Iran is a pressing issue? Maybe in Derpistan it is. Iran poses NO threat to the US.

Yeah, too bad they couldn't keep it non violent.

Occupy Oakland: Footage Shows Police Beating 'Peaceful' Iraq War Veteran | Common Dreams

Occupy Wall Street: Video Allegedly Shows NYPD Officer Striking Protesters With Baton (Photos)

‘Occupy Wall Street’ Update: Alleged Police Brutality Caught In Pepper-Spray Video | The New York Observer
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