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Old 11-05-2011, 07:25 PM   #331
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Something I do admire about US politics is that your choice between parties is much more stark, even if it is a choice between the extreme right and centre right. Here it can get a bit more confusing, as you often have the right here using left rhetoric, such as the Tory support for NHS, to get into power, but when in power they employ more right wing policies. The left at least under new Labour started a lot of the right wing policies when they were in power that the Tories have simply continued.
At this point, practically the only thing I admire about the US system is that a libertarian alternative is available, which is not the case in Europe. But the US libertarians are about as politically relevant as the Trotskyite/Socialist Worker faction are in Europe.

I certainly don't admire the way that in US politics, there are only two large parties - both deeply, deeply in hock to big business.

By drawing attention to the (comparative) political diversity that exists in Europe, as Indy500 has done, US republicans just turn themselves into an even bigger laughing stock than they are already.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:08 PM   #332
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I worry i'm becoming paranoid, with how much I am discovering that politics and big business works and as the saying goes they are playing with loaded dice. When your leaving the prosperity of a nation up to the vagaries of a gambler's guess on the stock markets and other companies financial dealings making more money from money, it just strikes me as something truly insane. I'll get on with my life the best I can, but I am deeply disillusioned with how these entrenched systems work, and it's not that I would like a return to some ancient barter system, i'm just frustrated we haven't found something better.

Too much the idealism of youth?
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:17 PM   #333
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I worry i'm becoming paranoid with how much I am discovering that politics and big business works and are the saying goes playing with loaded dice. When your leaving the prosperity of a nation up to the vagaries of a gambler's guess on the stock markets and other companies financial dealings making more money from money, it just strikes me as something truly insane. I'll get on with my life the best I can, but I am deeply disillusioned with how these entrenched systems work, and it's not that I would like a return to some ancient barter system, i'm just frustrated we haven't found something better.

Too much the idealism of youth?
Far from speaking to the idealism of youth, your first instinct was correct.

The current system is unviable, and is indeed collapsing in front of our eyes. This was entirely predictable, and indeed predicted. By Karl Marx, amongst others.

In years to come, your grandkids will ask you where were you during the revolutions of 2009-2012? Were you on the side of the 1%, or the 99%?
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:19 PM   #334
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Take it easy on him, he just found an article he liked on one of his GOP websites and decided it fit his preconceived narrative well enough.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:37 PM   #335
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I personally believe strongly that something's gonna happen in Europe very soon. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I'm almost 100% sure something like what's happening in North Africa islamic countries is gonna happen to.

We only have to think that History repeats itself. Specially in the XX century.
We had all these coup d'États for fascist, authoritary regimes in a few years: Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, etc etc etc.
Then, you had Greece's coup d'États in 1967 and in 1974.
A year after you had the Mai '68 in France.
Then, in 1974, a coup d'État in Portugal.
A year after the same with Spain.

Greece today is just at the border of a military coup d'État. People got numb with the severe austerity, but military are not. That's why this last week, Papandreou replaced the military "chiefs" because this event is imminent. He knows it.
If a coup d'État happens soon in Greece, I think that it may spread to countries like Portugal, Italy, France or Spain, for example... And this time, it'll be like in North Africa: the spreading will happen just in a matter of days/weeks instead of years (like in the 1970's). If it'll change for a good situation? I don't know. But knowing Europe's personality since it exists, I stopped calling "crazy" those who claim that the possibility of a new big conflict inside Europe is not vain and it gets closer as the situation degradates.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:56 PM   #336
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It's not really crazy when you have the leaders of Europe mentioning the possibility of war, such as Merkel.

There has been a major conflict roughly every 100 years involving the major players of the world at that time. The first and second world war in the 1900s, the Napoleonic wars, the wars of the Spanish and Austrian succession in the early 1700s, the Thirty Years War of the early 1600s...on and on it goes.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:10 PM   #337
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I personally believe strongly that something's gonna happen in Europe very soon. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I'm almost 100% sure something like what's happening in North Africa islamic countries is gonna happen to.

We only have to think that History repeats itself. Specially in the XX century.
We had all these coup d'États for fascist, authoritary regimes in a few years: Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, etc etc etc.
Then, you had Greece's coup d'États in 1967 and in 1974.
A year after you had the Mai '68 in France.
Then, in 1974, a coup d'État in Portugal.
A year after the same with Spain.

Greece today is just at the border of a military coup d'État. People got numb with the severe austerity, but military are not. That's why this last week, Papandreou replaced the military "chiefs" because this event is imminent. He knows it.
If a coup d'État happens soon in Greece, I think that it may spread to countries like Portugal, Italy, France or Spain, for example... And this time, it'll be like in North Africa: the spreading will happen just in a matter of days/weeks instead of years (like in the 1970's). If it'll change for a good situation? I don't know. But knowing Europe's personality since it exists, I stopped calling "crazy" those who claim that the possibility of a new big conflict inside Europe is not vain and it gets closer as the situation degradates.
Yes, the global revolution has already started.

This is why it is so important to ignore the globalist/neocon/neoliberal propagandists of the mainstream media, and to take to the streets if necessary to defend our rights.

Everyone has the right to liberty, human rights regardless of gender, race, creed and sexuality, freedom of expression, freedom from oppression from the jackbooted troops of the fascist-capitalist-bankster elite.

The 1% have decreed that our pension funds will be raided and our taxes will be increased in order to enrich themselves and profit off of our misery, to pay off their bad gambling debts - and it is moral, and indeed necessary, for us, the 99%, to remove the current structure, to create a better system - and this will happen.

Victory to the revolution! To the barricades, citoyens!
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:22 PM   #338
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Yes, the global revolution has already started.

This is why it is so important to ignore the globalist/neocon/neoliberal propagandists of the mainstream media, and to take to the streets if necessary to defend our rights.

Everyone has the right to liberty, human rights regardless of gender, race, creed and sexuality, freedom of expression, freedom from oppression from the jackbooted troops of the fascist-capitalist-bankster elite.

Victory to the revolution! To the barricades, citoyens!
And don't rely on the media to help you out on rebellion or future revolutions/change of state. Media doesn't care if you're hungry or not... Unless it brings profit$ to them.

Sometimes, I'm shocked by the coverage and the protection the media gives to the political/financial powers. At the same sime that media sleeps in the same bed and have crazy sex with the political/financial power, it pretends to be informing and to unmask things that are irrelevant.

I have been having news from Greece, for example, by searching in the international media. For example, NO ONE talks about the opinion polls of hypothetic elections in Greece. NO ONE. I had to go to greek websites and it was hard to find that info. Why? Because the results are shocking too and the media are afraid that other countries may have similar movements by "watching" it. It's been hidden or devalued somehow the danger of an imminent Coup D'État in Greece too, for the same reason and because, the day that will happen, countries like Germany and France (commanded by their neo-fascist leaders) would send their troops and their financial threats right in the next day (because their banks told them to do so).
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:25 PM   #339
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And don't rely on the media to help you out. Media doesn't care if you're hungry or not... Unless it brings profit$ to them.

Sometimes, I'm shocked by the coverage and the protection the media gives to the political/financial powers. At the same sime that media sleeps in the same bed and have crazy sex with the political/financial power, it pretends to be informing and to unmask things that are irrelevant.

I have been having news from Greece, for example, by searching in the international media. For example, NO ONE talks about the opinion polls of hypothetic elections in Greece. NO ONE. I had to go to greek websites and it was hard to find that info. Why? Because the results are shocking too and the media are afraid that other countries may have similar movements by "watching" it. It's been hidden or devalued somehow the danger of an imminent Coup D'État in Greece too, for the same reason and because, the day that will happen, countries like Germany and France (commanded by their neo-fascist leaders) would send their troops and their financial threats right in the next day (because their banks told them to do so).
Yeah I know. I am sceptical of any news I hear about Greece as presented by the globalist/neoliberal media, and counsel people to go to Greece and find out for themselves. The opinion on the ground is indeed very different from how it is presented by the globalist/neoliberal media.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:33 PM   #340
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One of my friends has a Greek girlfriend who is a teacher in Athens. She has handed him most of her savings and she planning to move here after Christmas. Word being things are quite bad.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:37 PM   #341
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One of my friends has a Greek girlfriend who is a teacher in Athens. She has handed him most of her savings and she planning to move here after Christmas. Word being things are quite bad.
They must be, if moving to Ireland is an improvement.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:50 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Aygo View Post
I personally believe strongly that something's gonna happen in Europe very soon. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I'm almost 100% sure something like what's happening in North Africa islamic countries is gonna happen to.

We only have to think that History repeats itself. Specially in the XX century.
We had all these coup d'États for fascist, authoritary regimes in a few years: Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, etc etc etc.
Then, you had Greece's coup d'États in 1967 and in 1974.
A year after you had the Mai '68 in France.
Then, in 1974, a coup d'État in Portugal.
A year after the same with Spain.

Greece today is just at the border of a military coup d'État. People got numb with the severe austerity, but military are not. That's why this last week, Papandreou replaced the military "chiefs" because this event is imminent. He knows it.
If a coup d'État happens soon in Greece, I think that it may spread to countries like Portugal, Italy, France or Spain, for example... And this time, it'll be like in North Africa: the spreading will happen just in a matter of days/weeks instead of years (like in the 1970's). If it'll change for a good situation? I don't know. But knowing Europe's personality since it exists, I stopped calling "crazy" those who claim that the possibility of a new big conflict inside Europe is not vain and it gets closer as the situation degradates.
I feel exactly the same way. It's actually kind of ... exciting in some aspects, that there will be change (hopefully the good sort ). On the other hand, I can't really see that much happening in the East, everything is so undeniably bleak there.

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They must be, if moving to Ireland is an improvement.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:50 PM   #343
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Sorry I'm in Manchester these days If Belfast gets crushed in the oncoming revolution, I shall not weep.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:55 PM   #344
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It would be my hope though that more peaceful means can achieve what society needs:


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How to Occupy the moral and political high ground
The worldwide protest can be a critical force for change if it follows some simple rules

Naomi Wolf
The Observer, Sunday 6 November 2011

As UK citizens are being told once again to "trust" the gatekeepers of the global banking system and as US citizens are realising that, despite a first amendment that guarantees freedom of speech and assembly, they are facing potentially lethal rubber bullets in Oakland and police brutality ranging from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to the streets of Manhattan, what is becoming clear is that a game-changing global shift is taking place. The conflict is no longer between right and left, but between the "one per cent" – a corporatocracy that, without transparency or accountability, is claiming the lion's share of the planet's resources and capital, while disregarding democratic processes – and, well, the rest of us.'

This single global family, transcending national boundaries, just wants a peaceful life, a sustainable future, economic justice and basic democracy. On the other side, the global corporatocracy, also transcending national boundaries, has purchased governments and legislative processes, developed its own military, mercenary or quasi-military enforcers, engaged in systemic economic fraud and plundered treasuries and ecosystems.

What should global protest movements learn from what's happening around the world and what lessons should they draw from their own experiences? My study of successful protest movements leads me to suggest the following:

■ Democracy is disruptive. Around the world, peaceful protesters are being demonised for this, but there is no right in a democratic civil society to be free of disruption. Protesters ideally should read Gandhi and King and dedicate themselves to disciplined, long-term, non-violent disruption of business as usual – especially disruption of traffic. If they are peaceful, they can't be infiltrated by provocateurs as easily, while the unjust militarisation of the police response is more transparent. Also, the winning protest movements of the past were a matter of months or years, not days or hours; they involved sitting down or "occupying" areas for the long haul.

■ Protesters need to raise their own money and use it to hire their own lawyers. The corporatocracy is terrified that citizens will get their hands on the mechanism of the law.

■ Protesters should make their own media and not rely on mainstream media to cover them. They should learn to write opinion pieces and press releases, blog about and document their experiences and create web platforms where cases of police abuse (and the abusers) are logged and documented. Protesters should use their cameras and video cameras religiously. There are, unfortunately, many documented cases of violent provocateurs in demonstrations. This is why it is so important not to cover one's face in a protest: provocateurs need to be photographed and logged.

■ Protesters in democracies should create email lists locally, sync the email lists nationally and start registering voters. They need to email their representatives the list of Occupy-registered voters in each district and commit to getting out the vote in congressional or parliamentary elections for Occupy-supporting candidates – while working to defeat Occupy-bashing candidates.

In Oakland, California, the right has started a recall effort to force the mayor from office for being "soft on the protesters". Protest groups need to organise to oust politicians who are brutal to or suppressive of protesters. This tips the scale: in Albany, New York, for instance, police and the district attorney refused to crack down on protesters and chose to support their first amendment rights.

■ The movement has been shy of identifying leaders, but I believe this is a mistake. A leader does not have to be a top-down hierarchist: a leader can be a simple representative. Protesters should elect representatives – for a given term just like in any democracy – and train them to talk to the press and to negotiate with politicians. These should span the spectrum: young people and grandparents, truckers and teachers and businesspeople. It is hard to cover the protest effectively if there are no spokespeople.

■ Protests should be scenes not of clashes but instead should model the kind of civil society this emerging human family wants to live in. In Zuccotti Park, in Manhattan, for instance, there is a kitchen, food is donated for free, kids are invited to sleep over and there are teach-ins organised. Musicians should bring instruments, the vibe should be joyful and positive. If there is mess, protesters should clean it up themselves. The idea is to build a new city within the corrupt city and show that this is a reflection of the majority of society, not a marginal destructive element.

■ Finally, we should understand that it is not a "list of demands" that is so profound about any of these protest movements; it is the very infrastructure of a common humanity that is being created. For decades, the global family has been told to keep its head down and leave leadership to the elites; in wealthy countries, to zone out in front of TV or at the mall; in the rest of the world, to submit to poverty and drudgery. What is transformative about the protest movement is that people are emerging and encountering one another face to face and remembering the habits of freedom: face to face, they build new institutions, new relationships and new organisations.

And, I hope, pass laws sooner rather than later to demilitarise the police; ban Tasers and rubber bullets; criminalise police and politician violence against free speech activities; demand prosecutions for financial fraud; compel the corporate books that unaccountably swallow billions in tax revenue to be audited; investigate torturers; bring home soldiers from corporate wars of choice – and rebuild society, this time from the grassroots up, accountably, lawfully and democratically.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:11 PM   #345
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Yeah I know. I am sceptical of any news I hear about Greece as presented by the globalist/neoliberal media, and counsel people to go to Greece and find out for themselves. The opinion on the ground is indeed very different from how it is presented by the globalist/neoliberal media.
It's scary, isn't it?

By the way, can you and LJT tell me what's happening in Ireland?
I know that Ireland "fell" and asked for IMF "pseudo-help" after Greece and right before Portugal.
Portuguese media, the only information they release is «Ireland's economic/financial adjustment program is going very well! Ireland is even already growing its GDP in 2011! Ireland's is the "good pupil" again.» I don't know if I should believe this information because it is the only thing they let us know. We have no idea what kind of measures/policies, what kind of reforms irish had to make. We have no idea if irish are resigned to the situation or if there's a growing discontent over there. No one tell us about it. We only know that your new government made a little more pressure [comparing to portuguese government, which is going 3/4 times further than what the IFM demanded] over the IMF and the EU not to force certain measures that were destructive to your kind of economic dynamic. Is that true?
Do irish media let irish people know of what's happening in Greece (or in Portugal) or is that being hidden from you too?

P.S.: Now I fully understand why Irish rejected the European Constitution... There's a video in portuguese on youtube (it's a pity that only exists in portuguese) that deconstructs the project of an european constitution. I was really really shocked when I saw it.
In short:
- It's a liberalist constitution;
- When it's approved it's not possible to change it;
- The word "bank" appears 176 times (in more than those 800 pages), "market" 78 times, "competition" 174 times... And "social progress" 3 times... "brotherhood" or "fraternity" appears... 0(!) times;
- "Public service" is reffered... Only 1(!) time and only to talk about transport coordination;
- "The right to have a job", "the right to a minimum salary, income or retirement pension", "the right to health" are reffered... 0(!) times. There no "right to accomodation", but only the "right to be accomodated";
- It reffers that "public services must be privatized and oppened to competition" and it says that "public help funds" must be restricted;
- The European Parliment has no right to propose laws, that's a function of the European Commission which is not directly elected in the european elections;
- The priority of the EU is to fight - not unemployment, not poverty, but... - inflation;
- European Central Bank is... completely independent, it has no control, which means that the UE is not allowed to define its own monetary policies;
- In case of war, the priority is - not the UE intervention to stop it, not an appeal to United Nations, but instead... - to avoid turmoils in the financial markets;

It's all here in this link. I'm not lying, I swear. The video even specifies which is the article chapter of the constitution where all these points are refered.

...Now I understand why Angela Merkel and Jean-Claude Trichet repeated incessantly «No country can leave the Euro without leaving the EU, which means that no country can abandon the EU once it gets in».
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