Pro-tax Occupation Protests Held Across U.S. (O.W.S. Thread)

[financeguy]

I keep an open mind about the right, mostly because I believe in fiscal conservatism in general and the fact that many things should be state issues and not national ones.

It's just a shame you have to have those two reasonable ideals bundled together with wacky, antiquated/exclusionary/discriminatory social policies, hysterical anti-government fervour, anti-immigrant bias for whatever the group of the day to pick on is (right now it's Mexis, in 20 years we will have moved on fully to browner folks like Muslims, and (let's face it) a little bit of historical racial prejudice lingering around in the bottom of the conservative well somewhere.

Well, true. Notwithstanding the tenor of some my rants on here recently, I still don't consider myself part of "the left". But, I definitely don't want to be associated with "the right" either. (even the comparatively middle-of-the-road soft right of European politics).

Being part of either seems to involve signing up to a set of ideologies that in some cases I find just plain bizarre.

 

[Steved1998]

Can you post a few facts to back that statement?

Yeah, those Tea Party radicals caused a lot of trouble.



I'm getting ready to sleep awhile and go back to work
early in the morning.

 

[Steved1998]

Please. I think the Occupiers had the right idea (Wall Street needs to be accountable more than the government) but went about it the wrong way.

College isn't a blessing. Blessings don't come with tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

You're expected to be in debt from the day you turn 18 until the day you die. If you don't want to go to college, then you have little to no hope of landing a job in the corporate world, education or pretty much anything else.. Trade school you say? They're the same. My brother did that and racked up a ton of debt. Manufacturing or factory work? Good luck!

i get the idea, and i'm angered myself... i just never saw the point of sitting in a park freezing your butt off without any end game

It brings attention to their problems with the current system, would give the politicians a kick in the ass, and hopefully would act as a way for the movement to solidify behind a platform. They really need a leader to step forward.

it's just so typical of the left.

the problem with the American left is that it's a tenuously held together coalition of groups who have different historical grievances but little else in common. it's much harder to get them to effectively protest anything, especially when opposed to the right, which is a group of similar people bound together by imagined fears and longing for a past that ever existed.

Well said.

 

[LJT]

I would classify myself as probably a mixed up centrist when it comes to fiscal and social policies. I would be fairly to the right when it comes to some tax issues (inheritance tax I find crappy, and I am not the greatest fan of council tax.) I believe in getting good value for tax payers money, efficiently run public services for instance. I am a huge fan of socialised medicine though (I do work for the NHS), but I see healthcare as a basic human right which should be covered by the state, I do not see how introducing competition works or benefits something like healthcare, I believe it should be better run but I don't believe that goes hand in hand with introducing more market ethics to it.

The way we spend so much on the military in the west, on new ways of killing people...I just don't get it, we only ever seem to bother with the weak powers in our democracy expeditions...it's macho posturing and a way of justifying programmes like Trident here in the UK on new nuclear submarines which just aren't needed when cuts are being made every where else.

The absolute moral faith in 'markets' is something I can never wrap my head around, and the idea that I keep hearing in the UK at least that we should become more like China 'less lazy, work longer blah blah blah' is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard, as it implies we should basically disregard human rights.

I've found myself angrier that i've ever felt at how badly states are run for the interests of the few. I don't want to destroy capitalism, I want it to benefit more people. The market is not God, it is not inherently a force of good or bad, but may have either affect, it's how we currently employ it that is so messed up at disenfranchising many good people. A revolution of sorts may be needed, as it is hard to imagine any of our current lot of politicians having the nerve or will to make some much needed changes.

I fear i'm rambling. I feel passionately about much of this especially in regards to healthcare issues and what not. I kinda support the Occupy movement but like many of them I struggle with what should be done other than a sort of revolutionary political movement. I know one of the main things would be to end the power of lobbying and campaign finance, but it would take a huge change in some politicians stances around the worlds. Apologies just back from a busy late shift at the hospital, mind a bit frazzled.

 

[Steved1998]

I would classify myself as probably a mixed up centrist when it comes to fiscal and social policies. I would be fairly to the right when it comes to some tax issues (inheritance tax I find crappy, and I am not the greatest fan of council tax.) I believe in getting good value for tax payers money, efficiently run public services for instance. I am a huge fan of socialised medicine though (I do work for the NHS), but I see healthcare as a basic human right which should be covered by the state, I do not see how introducing competition works or benefits something like healthcare, I believe it should be better run but I don't believe that goes hand in hand with introducing more market ethics to it.

The way we spend so much on the military in the west, on new ways of killing people...I just don't get it, we only ever seem to bother with the weak powers in our democracy expeditions...it's macho posturing and a way of justifying programmes like Trident here in the UK on new nuclear submarines which just aren't needed when cuts are being made every where else.

The absolute moral faith in 'markets' is something I can never wrap my head around, and the idea that I keep hearing in the UK at least that we should become more like China 'less lazy, work longer blah blah blah' is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard, as it implies we should basically disregard human rights.

I've found myself angrier that i've ever felt at how badly states are run for the interests of the few. I don't want to destroy capitalism, I want it to benefit more people. The market is not God, it is not inherently a force of good or bad, but may have either affect, it's how we currently employ it that is so messed up at disenfranchising many good people. A revolution of sorts may be needed, as it is hard to imagine any of our current lot of politicians having the nerve or will to make some much needed changes.

I fear i'm rambling. I feel passionately about much of this especially in regards to healthcare issues and what not. I kinda support the Occupy movement but like many of them I struggle with what should be done other than a sort of revolutionary political movement. I know one of the main things would be to end the power of lobbying and campaign finance, but it would take a huge change in some politicians stances around the worlds. Apologies just back from a busy late shift at the hospital, mind a bit frazzled.

You've pretty much summed up how I feel.

 

[INDY500]

The eyes of the world will be on the retail sector on Black Friday. This is the time to show the 1% that it can't survive without money from the 99%!! There will be no other day to show that!
-Thescreaminghead

Yes, coming soon to your televisions and possibly your cities already drained police budgets and backlogged courts. Occupy Black Friday.

Makes sense really; you have an egocentric group of anti-capitalist/anti-consumerist radicals sensing the whole world is quickly no longer watching and is in fact turning away from their public tantrum just cause. Plus, it will be a stroll down memory lane for these folks when they once again lock arms and shout profanities and inane chants outside of a Wal*Mart? Of course now feeling the urge to "occupy" them as well.

Forum Post: Occupy Black Friday: Suggested Tactics for covert and overt Retail disobedience. | OccupyWallSt.org


This is most illuminating:

Businesses that co-operate and openly support the Occupy movement should of course be left alone

In other words, "This is a nice business you have here. It'd be a shame if anything were to... happen to it."

I think there's a word for that.

 

[Diemen]

For all the talk of ineffective protests and lack of an endgame, the authorities charged with maintaining order and/or ending these protests sure have made their share of missteps. The latest exhibit in How To Grossly Overreact To Citizens Exercising Their Rights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnR7xET7Uo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

It brings attention to their problems with the current system, would give the politicians a kick in the ass, and hopefully would act as a way for the movement to solidify behind a platform. They really need a leader to step forward.

i get that it brings attention... but i don't think this necessarily NEEDS that much attention. we all know. we are all upset. we all want action... only this, from the very start, was a movement incapable of action other than inconveniencing the people they are trying to help.

the only business that was directly effected by occupy wall street at zuccotti park were small business owners in the area who lost customers because wall street clientele stayed away. so in reality, the only people who this protest hurt were the exact same people they set out to help.

they have made it very clear that they do not want a leader. that they are a leaderless movement. there's nothing wrong with leaders, provided the leaders actually stand for the right things.

what is next? what is the endgame? how about we put people in office who don't give a shit about reelection, about political party... just about helping our nation. ya know, what the founding fathers really wanted. let's do that. let's occupy the house with elected people who are truly of the people, by the people. then, and only then, will things actually get done.

 

[Canadiens1131]

And now for something a bit lighter from the OWS protests:

Drunk banker attacks:
http://youtu.be/MovUbDSECNg

 

[maycocksean]

A leaderless movement with a clear goal would work.

A movement with strong leadership but with no clear goal could be successful (though probably more in the sense that a cult is successful)

But I don't see how a "movement" that lacks both can accomplish anything.

 

[Steved1998]

i get that it brings attention... but i don't think this necessarily NEEDS that much attention. we all know. we are all upset. we all want action... only this, from the very start, was a movement incapable of action other than inconveniencing the people they are trying to help.

the only business that was directly effected by occupy wall street at zuccotti park were small business owners in the area who lost customers because wall street clientele stayed away. so in reality, the only people who this protest hurt were the exact same people they set out to help.

they have made it very clear that they do not want a leader. that they are a leaderless movement. there's nothing wrong with leaders, provided the leaders actually stand for the right things.

what is next? what is the endgame? how about we put people in office who don't give a shit about reelection, about political party... just about helping our nation. ya know, what the founding fathers really wanted. let's do that. let's occupy the house with elected people who are truly of the people, by the people. then, and only then, will things actually get done.

I don't think they're trying to get 'our' attention, i.e. the tech savvy people who get their news from a variety of resources, both online and off. They're trying to get the attention of the bankers, the CEOs, and the politicians who are running this country into the ground for their own personal gain. This should open their eyes that people are sick to death of the economy being pillaged and the government turning around and rewarding this behavior, because some companies are just 'too big to fail.' If this movement does nothing but get the Democrats to start moving back toward the left and getting some meaningful reforms enacted such as bringing back the Glass-Steagall Act and term limits enacted for both houses of Congress, then I think it would have been somewhat successful.

I think in order to elect politicians who actually pick country over party with little thought for their reelection chances, the OWS movement would have to really organize at the local level, district by district and get their candidates elected next year. That would mean that the movement is really going to have to coalesce around a central organizing body. I think term limits for both houses of Congress would also be effective. The only other way would be to tear the whole system down and start over again.

As for blocking small businesses and shitting in the streets, that's uncalled for and does nothing but hurt the image of the movement.

 

[Steved1998]

Yes, coming soon to your televisions and possibly your cities already drained police budgets and backlogged courts. Occupy Black Friday.

Makes sense really; you have an egocentric group of anti-capitalist/anti-consumerist radicals sensing the whole world is quickly no longer watching and is in fact turning away from their public tantrum just cause. Plus, it will be a stroll down memory lane for these folks when they once again lock arms and shout profanities and inane chants outside of a Wal*Mart? Of course now feeling the urge to "occupy" them as well.

Forum Post: Occupy Black Friday: Suggested Tactics for covert and overt Retail disobedience. | OccupyWallSt.org


This is most illuminating:



In other words, "This is a nice business you have here. It'd be a shame if anything were to... happen to it."

I think there's a word for that.

Send the massage!

 

[Jeannieco]

Next course of action I believe is a move to occupy the Capitol building in DC. I think they should have done this to begin with just like in Wisconsin when the teachers, firefighters and laborers occupied the capitol building. They were a mighty force and now are on the verge recalling Gov. Walker. We need to change the laws in this nation to get the MONEY out. Campaign finace reform is the only issue. The anti-establishment has to conquer the establishment in order to change things. That's what Corporations did. They hired lobbyists to do their bidding to change the laws that screwed the American middle class over the last 30 years. This movement is the beginning I hope of changing laws through the very system that became corrupt. It's going to get very interesting in the next few months. I just hope that people keep their cool and remain non violent.

Oh, and thinking about this more, it's exactly what Bono (who started out as punk rocker, anti-establishment kid) did with the ONE Campaign. He used the system to get what he was after, aid for Africa. It's jujutsu: ability to use an attacker's force against him or herself...

 

[INDY500]

Next course of action I believe is a move to occupy the Capitol building in DC.

Not gonna happen, they won't even get close. The only mass Tea Party arrests (6 or 7 !!) I'm aware of were when some overzealous TPers tried to have a chat with Barney Frank in the Capital building.

I think they should have done this to begin with just like in Wisconsin when the teachers, firefighters and laborers occupied the capitol building. They were a mighty force and now are on the verge recalling Gov. Walker. We need to change the laws in this nation to get the MONEY out.

Wisconsin Recall Elections: Record $44 Million Spent By Campaigns, Outside Groups

"We Are Wisconsin, a political action committee composed of national and Wisconsin unions, spent the most on the recalls at $10.75 million."

So my question would be does that include the money of union "teachers, firefighters and laborers"?

Campaign finace reform is the only issue.

Debt anyone? Jobs? Getting the economy moving again. Iran. Energy.
Anyway, wasn't someone from Wisconsin involved with the last campaign finance reform?

The anti-establishment has to conquer the establishment in order to change things.

Which would then make them the establishment if my math is correct.

This movement is the beginning I hope of changing laws through the very system that became corrupt.

I agree here that the system needs to be reformed, not undermined.

I just hope that people keep their cool and remain non violent.

Ooops, too late for that.

 

[Steved1998]

Not gonna happen, they won't even get close. The only mass Tea Party arrests (6 or 7 !!) I'm aware of were when some overzealous TPers tried to have a chat with Barney Frank in the Capital building.



Wisconsin Recall Elections: Record $44 Million Spent By Campaigns, Outside Groups

"We Are Wisconsin, a political action committee composed of national and Wisconsin unions, spent the most on the recalls at $10.75 million."

So my question would be does that include the money of union "teachers, firefighters and laborers"?



Debt anyone? Jobs? Getting the economy moving again. Iran. Energy.
Anyway, wasn't someone from Wisconsin involved with the last campaign finance reform?

Which would then make them the establishment if my math is correct.

I agree here that the system needs to be reformed, not undermined.


Ooops, too late for that.

Iran is a pressing issue? Maybe in Derpistan it is. Iran poses NO threat to the US.

Yeah, too bad they couldn't keep it non violent.

Occupy Oakland: Footage Shows Police Beating 'Peaceful' Iraq War Veteran | Common Dreams

Occupy Wall Street: Video Allegedly Shows NYPD Officer Striking Protesters With Baton (Photos)

‘Occupy Wall Street’ Update: Alleged Police Brutality Caught In Pepper-Spray Video | The New York Observer

 

[Jeannieco]

Not gonna happen, they won't even get close. The only mass Tea Party arrests (6 or 7 !!) I'm aware of were when some overzealous TPers tried to have a chat with Barney Frank in the Capital building.

What do you mean? Not sure what you are referring to??
I have been following the movement and yes, there is a planned occupation of the Capitol and the numbers will be huge. Groups from all over the world are merging as we speak to join the peaceful march in DC.

Wisconsin Recall Elections: Record $44 Million Spent By Campaigns, Outside Groups

"We Are Wisconsin, a political action committee composed of national and Wisconsin unions, spent the most on the recalls at $10.75 million."

So my question would be does that include the money of union "teachers, firefighters and laborers"?

That's my point. OWS has to abide by the system and how it works AT FIRST including raising money to get the ball rolling legislatively and then change the laws that make corruption easy. Yes, that is a simplistic way of viewing it and in truth this is going to be the most difficult bridge to cross. There are many voices within the group and they are trying to stay single-minded and on course and that in of itself is a monumental challenge.

Debt anyone? Jobs? Getting the economy moving again. Iran. Energy.
Anyway, wasn't someone from Wisconsin involved with the last campaign finance reform?

Our country would not have the debt we have now if it weren't for the corporate LOBBY that propells this nation's war money making machine. They grease the palms of Congress on both sides of the aisle, to make sure we engage in some kind of warfare be it covertly or overtly. It good for business you know.

Which would then make them the establishment if my math is correct.
I agree here that the system needs to be reformed, not undermined.
Ooops, too late for that.

Again, that is my point. They have join the system AT FIRST to change the system. Capeche?

 

[Canadiens1131]

Well, it's nice that they're just pepper spraying American students these days instead of shooting at them.

...

 

[deep]

a taser or two would get their attention.

 

[yolland]

This business of pepper-spraying nonviolent protesters for practicing passive resistance turns my stomach. The standard justification is that it's "just a compliance tool" and easier than lifting and dragging the protesters. But they still wind up dragging them away anyway, only difference is now they're blinded and in severe pain. Cowardly, sadistic and pathetic.

 

[LJT]

Reasoned response, my arse.

It's always interesting to note that they keep creating new legislation to restrict or reduce the avenues for protest, but they never seek to increase them. They are seeking to create new laws over here to prevent anything like occupy occurring during the Olympics in London, I doubt any of it will remain temporary measures.

 

[Steved1998]

Well, it's nice that they're just pepper spraying American students these days instead of shooting at them.

...

That crowd should have tore that pig limb from limb.

Here is a video of what happened. UC Davis Police Pepper-Spray Seated Students In Occupy Dispute (VIDEO) (UPDATES)

Anon already outed this guy Anonymous • D0X: UC Davis Pepper Spraying officer, Lt. John Pike

He makes 110k a year

Riot police have no place on a college campus during a peaceful protest. This isn't fucking China.

 

[INDY500]

What do you mean? Not sure what you are referring to??
I have been following the movement and yes, there is a planned occupation of the Capitol and the numbers will be huge. Groups from all over the world are merging as we speak to join the peaceful march in DC.

Protesters in Wisconsin were in the actual capital building. That won't be happening in D.C. is my only point.

Our country would not have the debt we have now if it weren't for the corporate LOBBY that propells this nation's war money making machine. They grease the palms of Congress on both sides of the aisle, to make sure we engage in some kind of warfare be it covertly or overtly. It good for business you know.

First point is Afghanistan was the "good" war and there was wide consensus on going into there. But the cost of the Iraq war (not counting future VA costs for veterans) is roughly equal to President Obama's $850 trillion stimulus.
Secondly, the drivers of the debt are not military expenditures but entitlements. Rising health care costs and retiring Baby Boomers give us an unfunded liability of $75 trillion on top of our $15 trillion dollar debt.

And using the CBO's 2010 long-term outlook by 2020 we will spend more on debt service (15-20%) than national defense (14-16%).Unfunded wars aren't helping but they aren't what's bankrupting the country.

 

[yolland]

That crowd should have tore that pig limb from limb.

No, they responded admirably and exactly as they should have.

 

[INDY500]

That crowd should have tore that pig limb from limb.

Thanks for the Abbie Hoffmanesque commentary. Recreate 68 !!

 

[PhilsFan]

Oh, we're back to calling police pigs now. Great. Awesome. How mature we are. Good thing we got a nice goofy picture in there too. Fun times, guys.

 

[Jeannieco]

So you are saying that President Obama's stimulus package which saved us from going under to another depression is mostly why we are in debt? Ofcourse it added to the debt, but according to most expert accounts like Paul Krugman, the economic Pulitzer Prize winner, he is saying that it wasn't enough to really stave off a second double dip recession. It should have been more.

Why is it always about "entitlements"? What about taxing the rich? Why is it always about cutting benefits to the elderly and poor in this nation and not the true self-entitled UBER wealthy who paid to change the laws to their benefit including tax breaks?
Back in the 50's the rich were taxed at over 90% and didn't seem to mind and the middle class was prosperous and comfortable. Oh and only one person had to work. But I guess nowadays it's all perspective. Keeping up the the Real Housewives of Bev Hills is a bitch isn't it?

I am just tired of the constant "cut" mantra on the right, when they aren't in the least bit serious about sacrificing ie, taxing the rich.

I am so sick of this argument.

 

[Steved1998]

Oh, we're back to calling police pigs now. Great. Awesome. How mature we are. Good thing we got a nice goofy picture in there too. Fun times, guys.

Back to? We've never stopped.

Pepper spraying those kids was uncalled for. They weren't violent nor were they a threat to anyone's life or property.

Thanks for the Abbie Hoffmanesque commentary. Recreate 68 !!

More like 76.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't think that's an appropriate use of pepper spray. I think the officers have been placed on leave, suspended-whatever they want to call it.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Oh, we're back to calling police pigs now. Great. Awesome. How mature we are. Good thing we got a nice goofy picture in there too. Fun times, guys.

That is what they are behaving like, at the very least.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

There is not the chance in hell that they would allow an occupation of the actual capitol building. Stick with the Mall.