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Old 10-15-2009, 10:57 AM   #1
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pro-lifers kill women

when you reduce access to abortions, women die. when you increase access to abortions, *and* access to contraception, abortion rates plummet.



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Bans 'do not cut abortion rate'

Restricting the availability of legal abortion does not appear to reduce the number of women trying to end unwanted pregnancies, a major report suggests.

The Guttmacher Institute's survey found abortion occurs at roughly equal rates in regions where it is legal and regions where it is highly restricted.

It did note that improved access to contraception had cut the overall abortion rate over the last decade.

But unsafe abortions, primarily illegal, have remained almost static.

The survey of 197 countries carried out by the Guttmacher Institute - a pro-choice reproductive think tank - found there were 41.6m abortions in 2003, compared with 45.5 in 1995 - a drop which occurred despite population increases.

Nineteen countries had liberalised their abortion laws over the 10 years studied, compared with tighter restrictions in just three.

But despite the general trend towards liberalisation, some 40% of the world's women live amid tight restrictions.


On some continents this is particularly pronounced: well over 90% of women in South America and Africa live in areas with strict abortion laws, proportions which have barely shifted in a decade.

Researchers also noted that while liberalisation was a key element in improving women's access to safer terminations, it was far from the only factor.

Even in countries where abortion is legal, lack of availability and cost may prove major obstacles. In India for example, where terminations are legally allowed for a variety of reasons, some 6m take place outside the health service.

The costs of unsafe abortions, which can include inserting pouches containing arsenic to back street surgery, can be high: the healthcare bill to deal with conditions from sepsis to organ failure can be four times what it costs to provide family planning services.

Every year, an estimated 70,000 women die as a result of unsafe abortions - leaving nearly a quarter of a million children without a mother - and 5m develop complications.

In the developed world, legal restrictions did not stop abortion but just meant it was "exported", with Irish women for instance simply travelling to other parts of Europe, according to Guttmacher's director, Dr Sharon Camp. In the developing world, it meant lives were put at risk.

"Too many women are maimed or killed each year because they lack legal abortion access," she said.

"The gains we've seen are modest in relation to what we can achieve. Investing in family planning is essential - far too many women lack access to contraception, putting them at risk."

Double Dutch

Western Europe is held up as an example of what access to contraceptive services can achieve, and the Netherlands - with just 10 abortions per 1,000 women compared to the world's 29 per 1,000 - is held up as the gold standard.

Here, young people report using two forms of contraception as standard.


Even the UK, which has a relatively high rate, fares well in comparison to the US, where the number of abortions is among the highest in the developed world. The institute says this rate is in part explained by inconsistencies in insurance coverage of contraceptive supplies.

In much of eastern Europe, where abortion was treated as a form of birth control, abortion rates have dropped by 50% in the past decade as contraceptives have become more widely available.


And globally, the number of married women of childbearing age with access to contraception has increased from 54% in 1990 to 63% in 2003, with gains also seen among single, sexually active women.

But there were still significant unmet contraception needs, and a lack of interest among pharmaceutical companies in developing new forms of birth control that provide top protection on demand, the institute said.

Josephine Quintavalle of the anti-abortion Comment on Reproductive Ethics said stopping women falling pregnant in the first place was an area where minds could meet.

"Abortion - back street or front street - is not the answer. Ensuring women have the means to end their pregnancies is not liberating them - they should be able to make real choices before they fall pregnant in the first place," she said.

"But that shouldn't necessarily mean taking pills every day. There will always be problems with access and cost, particularly in countries where people struggle just to buy food.

"What we need is to better understand our fertility - if there are just 24 fertile hours in a month, we need to work out a cheap, effective way for women to know when they can fall pregnant. That would be freedom, and that's what we should aim for."


the data is clear. being pro-choice is actually being pro-life. it saves lives.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:06 AM   #2
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I agree, Irvine, but I really don't think the anti-choice factions will ever be convinced by or even consider this data. It's much easier to be condescending & judgemental of the strumpets that get themselves pregnant than to consider that (although not a popular decision) the death of a fetus is better than bringing another unwanted child into the world.




(So there is no miscommunication in my comments, please read: "....the strumpets that get themselves pregnant..." with the highest amount of sarcasm allowed by law.)
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:30 PM   #3
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the death of a fetus is better than bringing another unwanted child into the world.
It's funny how people who think this way are already born. Do you know how many people would be offended by that, people who weren't exactly wanted when they were born?


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It's much easier to be condescending & judgemental of the strumpets that get themselves pregnant
That is the most inaccuarate generalization about pro-lifers/anti-choice I have ever heard.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:41 PM   #4
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It's funny how people who think this way are already born.
Well, I'd ask those who aren't born yet except I don't think anyone's developed a way to do so.

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That is the most inaccuarate generalization about pro-lifers/anti-choice I have ever heard.
It was intended it to be a gross generalization - hence the sarcasm disclaimer.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:52 PM   #5
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It's too bad that this thread got off to this kind of start (with the title even) given that the article has very useful information to perhaps begin a real and constructive dialogue.

The_Pac_Mule, what was your reaction to the article itself?
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:10 PM   #6
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I think some of the findings were biased that didnt take into account other things, but some of the other points were good and I agreed with, such as a need for a better understanding on when and how you can get pregnant, and how to prevent it in the first place.


On a totally unrelated note, it finally dawned on me that my stupid nickname I had when I was 8 years old also translates into a really stupid username
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:19 PM   #7
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I think some of the findings were biased that didnt take into account other things,
Fair enough, can you be more specific about what you found biased or missing?
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:24 PM   #8
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It is queer how people that are pro-abortion are anti-death penalty, and vice versa...and people that believe in banning cigarette smoking are for legalizing the smoking of Marijuana...vice versa. The list of inconsistencies goes on.

The truth is people only support their own self interests, which people loathe to admit; due to the fact they have been taught from childhood to be ashamed of self interest. I believe “self interest” is the noblest of causes to fight for. It is the root of all mans God given freedoms.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #9
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best thread ever
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TheShootist View Post
It is queer how people that are pro-abortion are anti-death penalty, and vice versa...and people that believe in banning cigarette smoking are for legalizing the smoking of Marijuana...vice versa. The list of inconsistencies goes on.

The truth is people only support their own self interests, which people loathe to admit; due to the fact they have been taught from childhood to be ashamed of self interest. I believe “self interest” is the noblest of causes to fight for. It is the root of all mans God given freedoms.
That is utter nonsense. I am pro-abortion because a) the fetus isn't a human until it is born, has no conscience, conciousness, awareness or cognition. b) It is better for the fetus to not be born or develop into a human if it cannot be properly cared for. The death penalty is different, because there is no way anyone can really be sure that a crime fitting of the death penalty has been committed. people admit to crimes to take the fall for others, or courts get decisions wrong, so how can the state murder a person with no certainty. Neither of these suit my own interests because I have no experience or contact with the ramifications of either. I am anti-cigarettes, but I am also anti marijuana, so you are making some fairly sweeping generalisations there
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dan_smee View Post
That is utter nonsense. I am pro-abortion because a) the fetus isn't a human until it is born, has no conscience, conciousness, awareness or cognition. b) It is better for the fetus to not be born or develop into a human if it cannot be properly cared for. The death penalty is different, because there is no way anyone can really be sure that a crime fitting of the death penalty has been committed. people admit to crimes to take the fall for others, or courts get decisions wrong, so how can the state murder a person with no certainty. Neither of these suit my own interests because I have no experience or contact with the ramifications of either. I am anti-cigarettes, but I am also anti marijuana, so you are making some fairly sweeping generalisations there
You would change your mind in a heartbeat, if you witnessed an abortion, in which the fetus's heart slowly stops as it gasps for breath.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by TheShootist View Post
You would change your mind in a heartbeat, if you witnessed an abortion, in which the fetus's heart slowly stops as it gasps for breath.


so you've seen a pro-life video or two?

ever seen a woman bleed to death from a botched abortion?
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:44 PM   #13
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Again, how about we stick to the premise that widely accessible contraception, fertility education and abortions REDUCES abortions and related deaths...
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:45 PM   #14
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You would change your mind in a heartbeat, if you witnessed an abortion, in which the fetus's heart slowly stops as it gasps for breath.
No I wouldn't. Don't you tell me how I would think. It wouldn't feel a thing. I would rather have it end before it could feel pain, or cognate what was happening, then it live a life of trauma, mistreatment, possible abuse, whatever it may be subjected to as an unwanted child. Most of the time that situation isn't the parents choice, and it is especially relevant now given that so many couples can't even afford to properly care for and raise a child. Speaking of your generalisations about what others think, isnt it funny how th pro-lifers are always anti-contraception. Put her on the pill, or slap a johnny on him and there is no real arguement.

Would you change your mind in a heartbeat if you had watched a woman die giving birth to a child they can't care for or was an unwanted pregnancy? How about the life of the husband after?
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TheShootist View Post
and people that believe in banning cigarette smoking are for legalizing the smoking of Marijuana...vice versa. The list of inconsistencies goes on.
Interesting, I've never this person.



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The truth is people only support their own self interests, which people loathe to admit; due to the fact they have been taught from childhood to be ashamed of self interest. I believe “self interest” is the noblest of causes to fight for. It is the root of all mans God given freedoms.
I believe this to be true for many. Mostly Republicans, be definition it's mostly self interst. And I'm sure many Dems too...

But I also know A LOT of people where this is complete bullshit.
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