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Old 11-06-2009, 11:00 AM   #106
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Seperate but equal? I think I've heard that before...
Actually - I think that is the case. I think most people see the importance of given gay couples all the rights/benefits as marriage. But I don't think it will ever be possible to convince everyone that a gay marriage is the same as a tradition marriage - it just isn't (from a basic biological level).
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:06 AM   #107
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See what I did there?

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Actually - I think that is the case. I think most people see the importance of given gay couples all the rights/benefits as marriage. But I don't think it will ever be possible to convince everyone that a gay marriage is the same as a tradition marriage - it just isn't (from a basic biological level).
I don't think it will ever be possible to convince everyone that an interracial marriage is the same as a traditional marriage - it just isn't.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:10 AM   #108
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To many, it seems redefining marriage is more about public perception than it is about actual legal status.
So you're going on record here as being in favor of a separate but equal status for gays?
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:22 AM   #109
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To many, it seems redefining marriage is more about public perception than it is about actual legal status.
And many would be wrong.

I have to laugh at the folks that have tried to steer away from their more homophobic reasons and focus on this new "redefine" argument.

This argument is moot. Marriage has been redefined many times throughout history. This argument is very transparent.

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Actually - I think that is the case. I think most people see the importance of given gay couples all the rights/benefits as marriage. But I don't think it will ever be possible to convince everyone that a gay marriage is the same as a tradition marriage - it just isn't (from a basic biological level).
Ever be possible? What a narrow view. I wonder how many men in the past said, "I don't think it will ever be possible to convince everyone that marriage should be between just one many and only ONE woman"...

And the bilological argument is just as moot as the definition one, and you know it.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:57 AM   #110
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The civil union component of my marriage is the government granted legal rights. The actual marriage is the historical definition of the union between a man and a woman. You are asking to redefine a term that is already in place - and I am asking why? If it is for the rights given/protected by the government - it seems civil unions take care of that issue. There would be no need to redfine the term.

To many, it seems redefining marriage is more about public perception than it is about actual legal status.


why would a civil union not be good enough for you?
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:06 PM   #111
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So you're going on record here as being in favor of a separate but equal status for gays?


and doesn't it make this way, way more complex than it needs to be?

conservatives pretend to be about liberty, and about reducing government in our lives, so why create an entirely new category of relationship? wouldn't it be cleaner and simpler to simply expand marriage -- by about 5% -- to include gay people? why go through the fuss of creating this clear, distinct, separate-but-equal category? why not just allow two adults to commit to each other legally and call it a marriage?

i think the real reason is that there seems to be a need to denigrate gay people. to tell them that they're not as good as you. that's the only reason why i see all this contortion around something that's really very simple. there has to be a stigmatized status so that a parent can affirm to a child, legally, that a gay person isn't as good as a straight person (so don't you dare be gay, junior).

all these "biological differences" are just window dressing on what really is very deep prejudice, something that i don't even think that many people are even aware of. you are saying, "no, YOU have a civil union, and I have a marriage. we are different, you see? we have to legally codify that difference."

this is why marriage is so threatening. because once the gays get married, once society really does say that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with a gay person, you have nothing to blame your prejudice on except your own ignorance.

and that's scary for some people. they know they have no rational arguments other than the "Adam and Steve" defense.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:49 PM   #112
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If gay marriage becomes legal - would you require that churches perform gay marriages to keep their tax exempt status? Would it become "hate speech" to teach that homosexuality is a sin (if that is their interpretation of Scripture - whether or not they are correct is another issue). I would bet more people are concerned about "next steps" than they are about gay marriage.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:16 PM   #113
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I wouldn't be worried about churches having particular social values imposed onto them, queer activists have more respect for the first amendment than you do.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:07 PM   #114
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If gay marriage becomes legal - would you require that churches perform gay marriages to keep their tax exempt status? Would it become "hate speech" to teach that homosexuality is a sin (if that is their interpretation of Scripture - whether or not they are correct is another issue). I would bet more people are concerned about "next steps" than they are about gay marriage.


i think people are concerned that they won't be able to kick faggots around, even if that's not a consciously formed thought.

churches can refuse to marry people from different religions, or require someone to convert before they will perform the marriage.

some churches seem to feel that it's perfectly fine to teach that women are second class citizens compared to their husbands without any legal repercussions, so i would imagine the same would apply here.

it might, however, become a bit of a less convincing sermon about the sinfulness of homosexuality if society doesn't offer socially sanctioned discriminatory status for gay couples. perhaps that's worrisome, and perhaps parents might have a more difficult time telling their kids that it's "wrong" or "bad" or "sinful" -- but racist parents have been successful in raising little racists, so i would imagine that some parents will still be successful.

but you're right, in a way. gay marriage = broad social approval of homosexuality. people will be free to say hateful things, like they are free to say hateful things about women and blacks and jews and whoever, but the credibility factor will fall.

if that's threatening, if that's a problem, then i suppose one would have a problem with same-sex marriage.

AEON, do you know any gay couples? i mean that as a serious question.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:20 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
If gay marriage becomes legal - would you require that churches perform gay marriages to keep their tax exempt status? Would it become "hate speech" to teach that homosexuality is a sin (if that is their interpretation of Scripture - whether or not they are correct is another issue). I would bet more people are concerned about "next steps" than they are about gay marriage.
This hasn't been an issue in the other Western nations where gay marriage is legal, so I don't know why it would be in the US either.
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:42 AM   #116
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This hasn't been an issue in the other Western nations where gay marriage is legal, so I don't know why it would be in the US either.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:37 AM   #117
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This hasn't been an issue in the other Western nations where gay marriage is legal, so I don't know why it would be in the US either.
We have a winner!
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:49 AM   #118
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This is true it had nothing to do with Obama. VA almost always alternates a Rep.-Dem every four years (they cannot have a second term in VA) and after four years of idiocy by Tim Kaine,(such as closing the rest areas) it was bound to happen. Another huge reason was that Deeds was a stupid candidate with a stupid voice and stupid face who couldn't even make his own commercials. He used ones with others touting him, and worst of all he had a nasty smear campaign trying to use McDonnell's ancient college thesis and 1972 voting record against him. This backfired badly, even among the working women he was targeting.

Another reason was that he was a dumb hick from the mountains (no offense personally, love the VA mts) but because of this he did not strike a chord with the black voters- which he HAD to have. He didn't. They stayed away in droves, and he lost badly. Many whites only voted for him because they hated Republicans. Why the Dems chose him instead of Terry McAulliffe I'll never know.

FACT: A Republican can win big in VA without the black vote, A Democrat cannot. The black factor WAS the difference.
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:49 AM   #119
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If gay marriage becomes legal - would you require that churches perform gay marriages to keep their tax exempt status? Would it become "hate speech" to teach that homosexuality is a sin (if that is their interpretation of Scripture - whether or not they are correct is another issue). I would bet more people are concerned about "next steps" than they are about gay marriage.
The church is not required to marry anyone they do not wish to marry(it's up to them what reason they give for not doing so and dealing with those consequences). This issue has NEVER been about forcing churches. You can keep trying to change the reason, but it's very transparent...
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:13 AM   #120
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This hasn't been an issue in the other Western nations where gay marriage is legal, so I don't know why it would be in the US either.
From what I can gather - the only countries that currently allow same sex marriage are Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, and Sweden and most of it happened within the last few years - is that correct?
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