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Old 11-05-2009, 03:36 AM   #76
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I must admit, after years of the same discussion, I wonder if the matter can be resolved in the near term. It "seems" to me that homosexuals want very much to be FULLY seen as normal, or at least in the range of what people consider normal. Normal desires, normal lifestyles, normal families, normal marriages, white picket fence, walking their kids to the park...fill in the blank.

And I can see that desire, and I believe it is real. Perhaps if I were gay, I would demand the same things. Yet, I can never fully understand what it means to think like a homosexual. And a homosexual can never fully understand what it means to be purely heterosexual.

I wonder if science can back up the fact that many heterosexuals feel naturally repulsed by visible homosexuality (is it nature or nurture that many feel that way?). It is difficult to be repulsed and have the major believe systems (for the most part) agree that they should be repulsed. In essence, I wonder where the repulsion comes from? Are people simply raised to be repulsed? Or is it something engranied as deeply as sexual orientation itself?

It is my opinion - that even if/when gay marriage is allowed - homosexuals will still fight to be seen as "normal" by the heterosexual community - and in the end, it is probably a losing fight.

BTW - if you think we are making "progress" in terms of teaching the next generation to be more sensitive to gay issues - just spend some time around 18 - 22 year old heterosexual males while nobody with PC authority is looking/listening...in my day, the worst insult was to be called a geek - to this next generation (black, white, hispanic...etc included), the worst insult is to be called - well, you know what...

Gay marriage will probably pass eventually, but I would suspect it would only create further division.
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Old 11-05-2009, 04:23 AM   #77
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Hey Aeon

Nice to see you make an appearance.

I hope all is well with you and your family.

Have you been stationed overseas? or have you been stateside?


back on topic,

I don't think we can break it down to what is "normal".

Why is it necessary to think of the sex act when one encounters gay people. The only reason for gays to exist is to be engaging in sex?

I have some friends that are married, she weighs 300 pounds and he is around 400. They have two kids. Watching then have sex might be considered repulsive by many. Mutual friends have even brought this up when they were not around. I found the discussion very distasteful. Whatever my friends wanted to do behind their closed doors was none of my business. And thank goodness people did not vote on how comfortable they would feel about obese people having sex and even kids.

Real old people with no teeth have sex. Again many might find that repulsive.

I don't find any sexuality between consenting adults that have genuine affection and concern for each other repulsive. I may not want to include it in my porn collection.

As for why many find gay sex repulsive?
I am convinced it is nurture. I am old enough to find it very similar to same repulsion some people had for black / white sex. There was a time when in casual conversation among friends people would say things like, "It would make me vomit, how repulsive, it is not normal, not the way God made us. He made us different for a reason."

I believe inter-racial relationships are a choice people make. They have a right to do that, and the law protects them with equal protection.

Yes, young males do anti-gay talk. I would not be surprised if some of this talk was done by closet gays for social acceptance. Young males talk about f*cking anything and anybody. Their sexuality is at the top of how they express and define themselves. Eventually we grow out of it.

I bet you said things and thought things at 17-19 that you would not do now.

This Maine vote was led by some Catholic media person on loan from their church. Maine has a 35% Catholic population. In CA the vote was led by the LDS Church and the Black Church.

It is disappointing to me that people had their rights taken away by a small margin that would not have happened it tax-exempted religions had not gotten involved in politics.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:39 AM   #78
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As for why many find gay sex repulsive?
I am convinced it is nurture.
Considering that "bisexuality," so to say, was a matter of routine in Greco-Roman culture, I'm inclined to agree. And considering that in some native cultures homosexuals are actually placed at an elevated status over others, it is also possible for the majority of a culture to not be attracted to the same sex while still being accepting of those who do.

And definitely, what deep says is true. Most of the arguments being used against gay marriage are the same that were used against interracial marriage: that it's repulsive, that it goes against nature, that it goes against God/the Bible, etc. Interestingly enough, it also took a Supreme Court case to legalize it, because you were never going to get a majority of people to vote in favour of it.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:43 AM   #79
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If I believed that heterosexuality meant "normal" then maybe I could have some clue. I know plenty of abnormal heterosexuals and I don't know what defines "normal" anyway. I do know that it's not just hetero=normal.

It was also a Catholic governor from Maine who attempted to make gay marriage happen there-so kudos to him. And not all males grow out of defining themselves by their sexuality- of course neither do all females either.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:52 AM   #80
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Hey Aeon

Nice to see you make an appearance.

I hope all is well with you and your family.

Have you been stationed overseas? or have you been stateside?
Thanks!

I've been here for quite some time. I just took a break from posting, but I've been reading the forum quite a bit.

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I have some friends that are married, she weighs 300 pounds and he is around 400. They have two kids. Watching then have sex might be considered repulsive by many.
Good point - and funny.

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As for why many find gay sex repulsive?
I am convinced it is nurture. I am old enough to find it very similar to same repulsion some people had for black / white sex.
Good point.

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Yes, young males do anti-gay talk. I would not be surprised if some of this talk was done by closet gays for social acceptance. Young males talk about f*cking anything and anybody. Their sexuality is at the top of how they express and define themselves. Eventually we grow out of it.
Yes, I agree we grow out of it (hopefully). I guess my point is that despite different cultural backgrounds and despite the strong PC push in the schools - these kids still think that being gay is the worst possible thing

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This Maine vote was led by some Catholic media person on loan from their church. Maine has a 35% Catholic population. In CA the vote was led by the LDS Church and the Black Church.
Do you find it interesting that the Catholic Church, which is much more "liberal" when it comes to social justice issues than the Protestants (immigration for instance) - and the "Black Church" which understand the struggle for equality as well as anyone - both oppose gay marriage?

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It is disappointing to me that people had their rights taken away by a small margin that would not have happened it tax-exempted religions had not gotten involved in politics.
I think that gay marriage is just not universally agreed upon. Maybe it will be, but not today. Enough mainstream believers and non-believers are opposed to it and they do not deserve to be considered bigoted and evil (maybe ignorant is fair). I think the comparison of the black's fight for equality can only be taken so far. Many people feel that being black is neither a choice nor a birth defect. Thus, there is no reason for either special or negative treament. Others feel that being gay is a either a choice or a birth defect - and this makes it different than racial issues.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:28 AM   #81
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I think there were always plenty of people who believed that being black was some sort of "birth defect"-thus slavery was allowed to exist, for starters. Maybe some people still believe that. I will never understand believing that people can "choose" to be gay, considering what results for them sometimes, what they are subjected to. But I have always believed that people will use that as an argument-that being black is not a choice and being gay is. Seems more than unfair to me, but that's my view. I definitely don't believe it's any sort of "birth defect" to be born gay.
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:05 AM   #82
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equality blooms with spring

i guess it's Autumn now..

and a horse is a horse of course..

<>


love is love.

all eyes on DC, NY, and NJ.

enormous progress has been made in just 6 years, but this was a setback.

i'm sure the Mormons are happy that there might be a group more ridiculed and despised than they are.
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:09 AM   #83
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Others feel that being gay is a either a choice or a birth defect - and this makes it different than racial issues.

and they're wrong. it's that simple. and people hold onto this belief so that they can justify their prejudice.

the world is a vastly more interesting, creative place because of gay people. you would all miss us if we all suddenly chose to be straight.

and i think it's less that all gays want kids a dog and a white picket fence. gay people are as varied as straight people when it comes to what they "want."

what gays want is to be treated equally under the law. even if i choose never to marry, i would like to at least have that option.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:40 PM   #84
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I guess my point is that despite different cultural backgrounds and despite the strong PC push in the schools - these kids still think that being gay is the worst possible thing
What exactly your exposure to teens across the country?


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Do you find it interesting that the Catholic Church, which is much more "liberal" when it comes to social justice issues than the Protestants (immigration for instance) - and the "Black Church" which understand the struggle for equality as well as anyone - both oppose gay marriage?
No, I still see the Catholic church being very backwards on many things, and are EXTREMELY slow to reconcile their past mistakes.



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Others feel that being gay is a either a choice or a birth defect - and this makes it different than racial issues.
There are still those that believe black people are black because they are "marked" should we give their ignorance equal say? Ignorance is ignorance no matter if it's a majority or minority.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:20 PM   #85
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children have to be taught that there's something wrong with gay people. for most families who have visible, out aunts and uncles (or mothers and fathers or cousins or whoever), children under the age of 10 or so have absolutely no problems with two men or two women who love each other. it does have to be taught, not just at home, but by peers. adults might find some subjects complicated, but children don't.

you know, like racism.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:10 PM   #86
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the world is a vastly more interesting, creative place because of gay people. you would all miss us if we all suddenly chose to be straight.
the world is a vastly more populated, colonized place because of straight people. mankind would all but disappear if we all suddenly chose to be gay.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:15 PM   #87
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the world is a vastly more populated, colonized place because of straight people. mankind would all but disappear if we all suddenly chose to be gay.
If being gay was a choice, and we all chose this then, yes, mankind would disappear.

Except homosexuality is not a choice, so there's no threat that we'd all suddenly wake up one day and decide to become gay.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:21 PM   #88
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the world is a vastly more populated, colonized place because of straight people
And we have really made a mess of so much of it-including our marriages and families. But as long as we keep that population going, who cares. Just don't allow those gay people to screw things up for us.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #89
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the world is a vastly more populated, colonized place because of straight people. mankind would all but disappear if we all suddenly chose to be gay.
You should go into the business of making tea baggers signs...
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:22 PM   #90
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the world is a vastly more populated, colonized place because of straight people. mankind would all but disappear if we all suddenly chose to be gay.


i'm not advocating second class citizenship for straight people.

i wish you loved me as much as i love you.
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