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Old 11-08-2009, 05:04 AM   #136
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Putting minority rights to a vote is immoral.
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Here is my observation, as a straight woman:

It is easy for you to see this as an argument/counter-argument, but you are intelligent and aware enough to realize that it is a question of real-life equality for real-life people here and elsewhere. Two of my closest friends are gay men, and I have a former roommate who is a lesbian. These people have offered me their love and friendship and we've laughed, cried, studied, worked, traveled together. Their fight for equality has changed nothing about my relationship with a man. The fact that they are all able to marry legally and live their lives openly and honestly is a GOOD thing and it has not in any way diminished my heterosexual ability to do the same.

So it isn't just an academic argument. It's an issue that has far-reaching consequences for millions of people. I am sad that in your nation, you by and large choose to treat a segment of your populace as either unequal or some form of separate but equal (ie. same shit, different name). While you sit here and construct your arguments and take them to your Bible study (which is commendable in fact), life goes on for people, and if I were one of them, I could see how much of what you say and furthermore a lot of what some other forum members have said is incredibly hurtful.
The above two posts very accurately reflect my thoughts and feelings about this topic. Very well said, Anitram.

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Thank you for your thoughts - and I do see your point. And I am sorry people are hurt engaging in the discussion. But it seems impossible to make any points on the conservative side of the argument that would not upset at least some people with a personal interest in the outcome.

So where do we go from here? Not discuss the opposing side at all? I would think that people would enter a forum like this and expect some disagreement of some sort, especially on a controversial issue. As long as people remain respectful, this seems like a wonderful place to have an intelligent and lively debate.
I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'm going to take a crack at it, anyway.

To answer the question of "where do we go from here," for me, it's very difficult to discuss a topic that I see in very black and white terms (and believe me, I'm anything but a black and white thinker, in general). Your side is unequivocally wrong, period. Any argument your side has put forth in (quasi) factual, societal, moral, interpersonal, historical or religious terms has been proven shoddy, and plain and simply wrong in many threads like these over the years. Real life examples disprove your arguments. Peer-reviewed science disproves your arguments. Anecdotal observation disproves your arguments. Logic disproves your arguments. History disproves your arguments. Entire nations disprove your arguments. So, for someone like me, it's awfully frustrating to see this discussion go around yet again, while a segment of the population is living without rights that heterosexual people take for granted, playing a waiting game (and, as you said, the time will come), until the whims of a mostly straight population say it's okay for them to participate as full citizens.

So, I really don't see any point in this "discussion." It's all been said and done before. But hats off to those of you who do have the patience to do this again. My level of frustration with the morality police is just way too high to take part in any meaningful way, usually.


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From what I can gather - the only countries that currently allow same sex marriage are Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, and Sweden and most of it happened within the last few years - is that correct?
This is correct. And the day after the legislation was passed here in Canada in 2005, the sun rose, we all got up, and went on with our lives. Now we have some same sex marriages, we have more hetero marriages. And really? No one even pays attention, it's business as usual. Canada was the 4th country to allow it. The Netherlands was the first, in 2001.

By the way, you left South Africa off your same sex marriage list. South Africa is more progressive than the US.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:23 AM   #137
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South Africa is more progressive than the US.
Let's not forget South Africa has the highest crime rate in the world, Brazil is 2nd.

So much for progressiveness.

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Old 11-08-2009, 09:25 AM   #138
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Umm guys just 4 the record gay marriage/rights was/were never ever an issue in the VA election and were never mentioned in any of the commercials/mudslinging so why has this thread on the VA election been taken over by this subject? Could a mod please split it so we can get back to discussing each topic individually?
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:02 AM   #139
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The Netherlands was the first, in 2001.
I went to my uncles' wedding that year (or the next, can't remember). How time flies
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:08 AM   #140
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I will encourage his development into a masculine, heterosexual male.
What does this even mean? What if he's happy doing something you don't consider masculine (like joining the ballet, apparently).
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #141
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Umm guys just 4 the record gay marriage/rights was/were never ever an issue in the VA election and were never mentioned in any of the commercials/mudslinging so why has this thread on the VA election been taken over by this subject?
I think we steered it off course in discussing the Maine gay marriage vote. One person posts, then a reply, then another reply - and that leads to another reply - and before you know it, we are talking about Hitler and the Big Bang.

Sorry about helping to steer it.

Back to the topic - I do tend to agree with those that feel that any incumbent is in danger no matter what their party. I think many people are just fed up with the entire political system (or corruption of it). On one hand - we have a Democratic congress shoving huge spending projects with money we don't have - or will ever have, and on the other hand we have the whining Republicans who just spent more tax payer money in history up until that point.

Both parties suck. And I think the main cause of our troubles (at least one of them) is that we allow companies and organizations to contribute to campaigns. How in the world is this not seen as a conflict of interest? These people are buying the people that make the laws - and then the lawmakers return the favor by implementing laws or approving a bill that directly benefits the people that "bought" them. It's sick.

In Plato's Republic, the Guardians could not own land or money. The idea being it would lessen the leaders' vulnerability to bribery. I think something along these lines would help.

So I think we will continue to see a "throw the suckers out" voting trend whether it is Democrat or Republican.
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Old 11-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #142
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Let's not forget South Africa has the highest crime rate in the world, Brazil is 2nd.

So much for progressiveness.

.


<>
Rate of crime does not necessarily equate to human rights, or lack thereof. Societies in transition often do experience a period of upheaval, including higher rates of crime. That still doesn't take away from the fact that South Africa is more progressive than the US in the matter of equality for homosexuals.

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I went to my uncles' wedding that year (or the next, can't remember). How time flies


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And I think the main cause of our troubles (at least one of them) is that we allow companies and organizations to contribute to campaigns. How in the world is this not seen as a conflict of interest? These people are buying the people that make the laws - and then the lawmakers return the favor by implementing laws or approving a bill that directly benefits the people that "bought" them. It's sick.
Now this I can agree with.
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:09 PM   #143
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I have a son, and while I will not teach him to hate gays or disrespect women - I will encourage his development into a masculine, heterosexual male. Will he turn out that way? Most likely, but it isn't for certain. Will I still love him if runs off to join the ballet and comes home with a gay boyfriend? Of course, he's my son. However, by identifying himself as a heterosexual male (assumption, yes) he will realize one day - "I am a man, not a woman. I am a heterosexual, not a homosexual." Is this wrong or do you feel it as cold heart and archaic categorization?

don't have time for an in depth response, but let me ask you this: how do you understand yourself as a white person? do you achieve this knowledge through negative comparisons with others, or do you simply acknowledge that people are simply different, there are different races in the world, and that's how it is. i certainly think it's possible for a heterosexual male to understand himself as neither a homosexual male nor a heterosexual female and not have that sense of understanding come from calling women bitches, calling gays faggots, or queer bashing or raping their prom date.

children who have close family members or gay parents tend to be heterosexual about 95% of the time -- yet, most (i assume nearly all) don't grow up thinking that gay people are less human than they are.

also, there are straight ballet dancers who live in San Francisco, and gay football players who live in Tennessee.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:06 PM   #144
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That might explain why the Titans are 2 and 6 this year.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:24 PM   #145
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That might explain why the Titans are 2 and 6 this year.

gays can't play football.

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Old 11-09-2009, 01:06 AM   #146
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gays can't play football.

LOL! Good to see you still have your sense of humor.
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