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Old 01-06-2016, 11:53 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Came in as a Category 1. Major Hurricane is 3 or above.

Look at Asia, they've had massive typhoons hitting land almost every year. And we just had one of the strongest hurricanes ever recorded hit Mexico this year. America isn't the world.


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Old 01-06-2016, 11:55 PM   #122
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http://www.theweathernetwork.com/us/...o-blame/47882/

Climate change will probably result in less tornadoes and tornado outbreaks but the ones that do happen will be more severe. Just look at the 2011 Super Outbreak in Dixie Alley.


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Old 01-07-2016, 02:04 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Here's the thing, though, Oregoropa: those people are still allowed to spout their views. Their speech hasn't actually been silenced. That weatherman can still spout his views on global warming and Trump can still bluster and blubber as he pleases. They would just have one less place to express those views. But they haven't actually been permanently silenced.

Also, the weatherman being suspended is the decision of the station he works for, and as a private entity, they have the right to do that if they wish. After all, isn't that the very argument conservatives use when they claim they have the right to deny people service or jobs based on sexual orientation? Pray tell, what's the difference? That's not exactly some example of the evil federal government cracking down on his First Amendment rights.

And it kind of doesn't make sense for someone who is involved in the study of weather to question global warming. If he questioned it, then he's spouting things that aren't true. That's not attacking conservative thought, that's simply firing someone who makes blatantly untrue claims. Why would I want to listen to or employ a weatherman who either expresses doubts about or doesn't believe in the concept of global warming?

As for the college, were they forced to suspend their food night or did they choose to do that? If they chose to do that, well, that was their decision, and again, not really under the umbrella of "censorship". Unless that particular student forced them to shut down their traditional celebration their free speech hasn't exactly been curbed. When the federal government starts actively revoking people's First Amendment rights for these sorts of situations, then I'll take this "erosion of free speech!" hysteria a little more seriously. Until then, this is not exactly cause for alarm. This is a few individuals' personal reaction to what some people say or believe. Again, if you want to say or do something offensive or inflammatory or ignorant, fine, but that does NOT mean you are free of any consequences for what you say or do.

Mind, I'm basing this all on iron horse's simple explanations of these situations without seeing actual links to these stories of these supposed "curbing of free speech" moments. I somehow get the sneaking suspicion that if we were to look up these stories, there'd be a lot more to the reasons why the weatherman was fired, or why this particular traditional celebration at a college rubbed someone the wrong way, and it wouldn't be a simple matter of, "See, look at all these oversensitive people trying to silence others!"

And the UK potentially not wanting Trump to visit has less to do with free speech and more to do with the fact that they probably feel he shouldn't be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. And they'd be right.


A response to each paragraph and a few quotes:

1. "They would just have one less place to express those views. But they haven't actually been permanently silenced."So because it just "one less" place to express a person's views and since they have been totally censored you are saying it is okay?
Who will decide where a person can talk freely or not? The state? The majority opinion?


2. "After all, isn't that the very argument conservatives use when they claim they have the right to deny people service or jobs based on sexual orientation?"

I think it is different because with the weather guy it was a disagreement on science, not morality /religious ethics.



3. "If he questioned it, then he's spouting things that aren't true."
"Why would I want to listen to or employ a weatherman who either expresses doubts about or doesn't believe in the concept of global warming?"


This idea that "global warming" is a settled science, I think, goes against the pursuit of science. It is a dangerous idea. How do you know it is not true? Remember at one point in history it was settled thought that the universe revolved around the earth.

I believe it is very important to listen and try to understand more on all sides of an issue.


4. "As for the college, were they forced to suspend their food night or did they choose to do that? If they chose to do that, well, that was their decision, and again, not really under the umbrella of "censorship"It was the university's decision. No it was not "censorship" but it was under the umbrella of "political correctness" of not wanting to appear offensive.

This morning our local news reported a building at this same university had been spray painted with the message: CHANGE THE NAME. A group of students have recently been protesting that the building's name be changed because it is named after a school trustee who was a member of the Confederate army during the American Civil War.

How far will this removing of "names" some say are offensive go?


5. "Mind, I'm basing this all on iron horse's simple explanations of these situations without seeing actual links to these stories of these supposed "curbing of free speech" moments. I somehow get the sneaking suspicion that if we were to look up these stories, there'd be a lot more to the reasons..."

I have already posted a few links and I guess I will post some more. If interested, please do look these up and along other examples.


6. "And the UK potentially not wanting Trump to visit has less to do with free speech and more to do with the fact that they probably feel he shouldn't be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. And they'd be right."


Who are "they" and what "fact" do they have to decide a person should not be taken seriously as a presidential candidate and for this reason he or she will not be allowed to visit our country?

It's fine with me if you think Trump is a joke but are you okay with the state denying him entry, not because he has broken any laws, but because you disagree with him?
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:21 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
So because it just "one less" place to express a person's views and since they have been totally censored you are saying it is okay?
Who will decide where a person can talk freely or not? The state? The majority opinion?
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the right to free speech.

The right to free speech gives you the freedom to say whatever dumb shit your mind can come up with, but there is absolutely no entitlement whatsoever to a megaphone to shout it through, or any right to have people listen to what you have to say.

Quote:
Who are "they" and what "fact" do they have to decide a person should not be taken seriously as a presidential candidate and for this reason he or she will not be allowed to visit our country?
Last I checked, sovereign nations are entitled to permit or bar entry to whomever they want to. Trump doesn't have any inherent right to be in any country on earth other than the one in which he is a citizen.

Quote:
It's fine with me if you think Trump is a joke but are you okay with the state denying him entry, not because he has broken any laws, but because you disagree with him?
But it's a-ok for President Trump (*shudder*) to deny entry to the US to people who have broken no laws, simply because he disagrees with them?

Are you that oblivious to the double standard you're putting forward here, or just being wilfully obtuse?
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:59 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
You are fundamentally misunderstanding the right to free speech.

The right to free speech gives you the freedom to say whatever dumb shit your mind can come up with, but there is absolutely no entitlement whatsoever to a megaphone to shout it through, or any right to have people listen to what you have to say.



Last I checked, sovereign nations are entitled to permit or bar entry to whomever they want to. Trump doesn't have any inherent right to be in any country on earth other than the one in which he is a citizen.



But it's a-ok for President Trump (*shudder*) to deny entry to the US to people who have broken no laws, simply because he disagrees with them?

Are you that oblivious to the double standard you're putting forward here, or just being wilfully obtuse?


First, my political leanings are libertarian and I actually consider myself a liberal in the classic meaning of the term. I am not a Trump supporter but more importantly I have not closed my mind to listening to what he has to say or what others have to say.


"Are you that oblivious to the double standard you're putting forward here, or just being wilfully obtuse?"

Me? You just said a state has the right to deny entry but then you are upset that Trump would deny entry to people to the U.S.

Please post any quote (the full quote) where Trump said he would deny entry to people simply because he does not agree with them?

It is my view what Trump has said on this issue has been taken out of context and reduced to "sound bites" to be promote this propaganda about his views.



History note: The U.S. did not even allow immigration from around 1924 to 1964. I guess there were a few exceptions but for the most part it was all shutdown.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:01 PM   #126
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"Not long ago, the Guardian ran a weekly feature in which various notables were asked to imagine what they would do if they were king or queen for a day: almost everyone asked mentioned the things - other people’s words, expressions, behaviours - that they would ban. We appear to equate power with banning things, censoring the world."


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Old 01-07-2016, 03:46 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post

I think it is different because with the weather guy it was a disagreement on science, not morality /religious ethics.
Why is it different? Why is your morality any different from another man's facts?
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:51 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post

It is a FACT that a majority of professors are liberal.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...can-professors
It's hilarious that you lecture everyone on how the science isn't fact on climate change, yet you're very quick to call this FACT based on a pretty flimsy article.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:53 PM   #129
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If you don't see the difference between barring one person entry to a foreign country because they incite hate, and blanket banning every single person who follows a certain religion including citizens from birth then I don't know what else to tell you.

And I'm not going digging for that quote because you know damn well what he said and what he meant. No more Muslims in the United States, full stop.

And your "history note" is completely and utterly false. Quotas (suuuuuper racist ones) were established for non-Western nations but hundreds of thousands of immigrants still came to the US, particularly from European countries. In any case, it bears zero relevance to anything either of us were saying. 30 seconds on Wikipedia would have given you these facts, ffs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist..._United_States
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:57 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
Oklahoma is a sweet spot where the ingredients all come together in May-June to produce monster F-5s. They have occurred throughout US history, now the appear more frequently in the public view with video chasers, and they are hitting areas that are more densely populated. More lives are saved with increased warning times, media. Storm cellars.
It's not just May & June anymore, we have had some pretty big ones in April. I think there was an F4 in Dallas a couple of weeks ago maybe? But yeah, Moore is ground zero for F5s or so it seems. I think there have been 3 F5s since (and including) May 3rd 1999 that traveled almost an identical path. Very creepy. I do wonder if the lay of the land has anything to do with it, as in, Moore is kind of in a valley. Also these storms start west of the metro and seem to build up steam in an area of flatlands known as "10 mile flats". By the time they get to Moore they are monsters.

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Seemed more like every year. I lived in Moore for 8 years. It was a place where everyone knew the risk of living there. But I was never worried because Rick Mitchell kept me protected. Btw assuming you're an okie, is he still on ABC over there? Making fun of him kept things light as we feared we would die (and nearly did many times).
I believe that Rick Mitchell moved to Dallas. Ironically the guy who took his place moved to Moore and his family lives there in an area that got hit really bad in 2013 when the school took a direct hit and several small children died. I think that was April 20th of 2013.

You would think a weatherman would have enough money and sense not to move to Moore Oklahoma, but then again, he might like the thrill of it all. The old saying there is, if you live there, don't bother to update (redecorate) your home because in a few years you will just get a new one thanks to the tornadoes.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:56 PM   #131
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But yeah, Moore is ground zero for F5s or so it seems. I think there have been 3 F5s since (and including) May 3rd 1999 that traveled almost an identical path.

My friend's family had their home destroyed in 1999. They moved slightly north, but still in Moore, and then had their home destroyed again in 2013. Madness


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Old 01-08-2016, 12:35 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
It's not just May & June anymore, we have had some pretty big ones in April. I think there was an F4 in Dallas a couple of weeks ago maybe? But yeah, Moore is ground zero for F5s or so it seems. I think there have been 3 F5s since (and including) May 3rd 1999 that traveled almost an identical path. Very creepy. I do wonder if the lay of the land has anything to do with it, as in, Moore is kind of in a valley. Also these storms start west of the metro and seem to build up steam in an area of flatlands known as "10 mile flats". By the time they get to Moore they are monsters.
I remember having a bunch of tornadoes in September and even a couple in November as well. Basically on Tornado watch every day during May and April. They became more frequent every year. People were so used to them we would continue to play baseball games with sirens going off. But of course that was mainly because Del City is a crap hole.
I lived down by Earlywine golf course and that whole area got decimated in the 1999 tornadoes. We had a couple F3's and F4's miss our house by a half mile or so. I've been back up to Moore a couple times since the terrible ones in 2013 and I was shocked at the devastation.


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Old 01-08-2016, 08:50 AM   #133
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If you don't see the difference between barring one person entry to a foreign country because they incite hate, and blanket banning every single person who follows a certain religion including citizens from birth then I don't know what else to tell you.

And I'm not going digging for that quote because you know damn well what he said and what he meant. No more Muslims in the United States, full stop.

And your "history note" is completely and utterly false. Quotas (suuuuuper racist ones) were established for non-Western nations but hundreds of thousands of immigrants still came to the US, particularly from European countries. In any case, it bears zero relevance to anything either of us were saying. 30 seconds on Wikipedia would have given you these facts, ffs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist..._United_States

“Congress did change the nation's basic policy about immigration. The National Origins Formula of 1921 (and its final form in 1924) not only restricted the number of immigrants who might enter the United States but also assigned slots according to quotas based on national origins.”
The quote is from the link you posted. Although in my original statement I said there were “exceptions” during this time, next time I guess I better me more precise.

And like I said before, I’m not a Trump supporter. The problem I have is how the media and others will “clip” a comment or use an edited sound bite that changes what is actually being said. One example is how NBC edited the audio from George Zimmerman's call to police the night he fatally shot Trayvon Martin.

Trump’s statement: “We need a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.”
The text in bold is what is usually edited out.

You think this incites hate, I don't.

In a time when factions of radical Islam have declared war on the West, I do not think it is unreasonable to stop and make sure all is being done to keep them from entering a Western country.
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:58 AM   #134
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And like I said before, I’m not a Trump supporter. The problem I have is how the media and others will “clip” a comment or use an edited sound bite that changes what is actually being said. One example is how NBC edited the audio from George Zimmerman's call to police the night he fatally shot Trayvon Martin.
I'm glad you jumped off his bandwagon, it seems like most in here have.

But let's not pretend the media you love, FOX, Briebart, etc. doesn't do the same.
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Trump’s statement: “We need a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.”
The text in bold is what is usually edited out.

You think this incites hate, I don't.

In a time when factions of radical Islam have declared war on the West, I do not think it is unreasonable to stop and make sure all is being done to keep them from entering a Western country.
I don't think that part really changes anything. If anything it just shows that Trump knows nothing of the screening process already put in place.
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:34 PM   #135
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Came in as a Category 1. Major Hurricane is 3 or above.
Actually, it made landfall as a subtropical storm, not a hurricane or tropical storm at all. Technicalities, of course, as it still had all the power of a hurricaine.

And you are right in that weather patterns are cyclical in nature. Sandy hitting the NYC metro area also had nothing to do with global warming, even though it's often attributed to global warming. There was a blocking high pressure that steered it into shore, and at the worst possible time as it coincided with high tide.

It's right to get the science right when making arguments, and many supporters of global warming often don't get it right and use all sorts of major weather systems that have nothing to do with global warming as proof.

Alas... global warming does exist. To what extent that it's man made vs cyclical can be debated, but to debate that we haven't had a negative effect on the earth's environment is silly and dead wrong. The seas are warmer, and the seas are higher than they would be if not for man made pollution. That's simply fact.

Are there cyclical warming and cooling periods throughout earth's history? Yes. But that being true doesn't mean that man's impact on earth doesn't matter.

Which leads us back to Sandy. The floods were worsened by higher seas. The high tides are higher than they would have been decades ago. Global warming didn't make Sandy. It didn't steer Sandy into the shore. It did, however, make the flooding worse. Debating this would be just dumb.
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