Osama Bin Laden is dead.

[BVS]

Several posts above.

I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".

 

[Earnie Shavers]

so maybe it was an option?

Yeah, maybe as it played out it could have been an option. Maybe not. I just mean that in planning, you wouldn't be able to make it a goal or even a hopeful outcome.

First priority: Get in and out as fast as possible. Best way to achieve that: No fucking around. So as a possible outcome, you wouldn't place 'capture' any higher than "Yeah, if when you get there, there's no resistance and he's standing there in the courtyard in his underpants waving a white flag, then go for it, but otherwise... no risks."

So if it comes out that this was all actually fairly ordered and simple, that's one thing, but from what we know now - that they had just crashed one chopper, they've just had or are still in the middle of some sort of 'fierce' fire fight, that they were deep within Pakistan, smack in the middle of a military city (ie, lord knows who might be about to show up, and what their reaction will be) - then it could all have been some chaotic madness that could not be contained and slowed down, and if that's the case, then I don't think it's that 'bad' that bin Laden ended up getting shot. And in that split second, whether he was armed or not, a lot could have been going on.

But having said that, I wouldn't care much for anything the Administration is saying about how they would have if they could have. I'd say they're all pretty happy that they didn't and they couldn't.

 

[mama cass]

guess the whole thing was completely unpredictable... 40 minutes though, that seems quite a long time really, for such a stealth operation...

 

[Popmartijn]

I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".

This is what I saw reported earlier today on Politico. White House modifies Osama bin Laden account - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

As I said before, some details are still a bit murky as more and more information becomes available.

Another official familiar with the operation said it did not appear that any woman was used as a human shield, but that the woman killed and the one injured were hurt in the crossfire. The official said he believed Brennan had mixed up the episode involving bin Laden’s wife with another encounter elsewhere in the compound.

“Two women were shot here. It sounds like their fates were mixed up,” said the U.S. official. “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”

In another discrepancy, Brennan said during his on-the-record briefing that bin Laden’s son Khalid was killed in the attack. However, the official White House transcript had the counterterrorism adviser saying it was another son, Hamza, who perished in the raid.

The White House didn’t offer a reason for any of the changes. However, Brennan noted during his televised briefing that his information came from reports from the scene as well as live video feeds of the raid. “I wasn’t there,” he said.

 

[YBORCITY]

Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?

 

[Tiger Edge]

It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had

You know, a calm non-cowboy president would have said, hold your horses here, General, I know you wanna use up them troops, but before I sent in the cavalry, let's really be certain before we commit the majority of our attention, manpower and funding to an invasion in a country that may or may not have anything to do with what happened on September 11th.

Iraq was either a shoot from the hip reaction by a bunch of yes men whose only training was "shoot first and ask questions later" or it was planned by a group of men who are as evil as Osama was, and much more damaging to innocent civilians in retrospect.

Of course, you can take a look at what happened this weekend (and since the course of August - TEN WHOLE MONTHS) when the right questions are asked prior to whipping out a gun, the intel gained is cross-verified and the military prowess is limited to a specially trained group instead of a lot of gung ho teens who are part of the shoot first and ask questions later group (see The Tillman Story). Enemy taken out, no soldiers harmed, case closed.

But you know, whatever. That's just me.

 

[Popmartijn]

i just worry there might be a backlash, and things might get worse, much worse... al Qaida is fully functional without Bin Laden, he was just a figurehead in the end, but now he is a martyr and there will be revenge surely??

I think there will be a backlash/revenge in the short term, but in the longer term this will be a big blow to al-Qaida. He might've become more a figurehead lately, but he was a very important figurehead. A charismatic leader that unified the group, with probably plenty of ties to wealthy donors and a symbol for people to join al-Qaida.
With him gone, it's up to the #2 to be the leader and from all reports I've seen so far he's a far more divisive figure (for the al-Qaida organisation). Will he be able to attract many new recruits and donors? Plus, with the killing of Bin Laden the USA also sent out a very powerful message that no terrorist is safe. You will be caught. Over the years the USA already caught plenty of #3's in command, but with Bin Laden now gone, the leadership base has become very small.

 

[mama cass]

I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".

yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!

 

[BVS]

yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!

Oh come on you can't be serious.

So far all we've seen are right leaning sights reporting on these vague off the record accounts(and it's all essentially the same report just shared on several sights). The only quote we've seen doesn't even actually say that he was unarmed. And it admits “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”

 

[PhilsFan]

Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?

Who are you?

 

[Irvine511]

1. The "Horrors" of the Bush administration???????
2. One of the Gutsiest military decisions ever made???

1. i have gone on and on (and on) in here about my problems with GWB. i have no sympathy nor respect for most of what Bush did. he ran this country into the ground in so many ways, i can't begin to list them here. i make no apologies for calling his administration a horror show.

2. it was very gutsy to send in a SEAL team rather than bomb, which is what Sec. Gates initially wanted. especially given the intensity and precariousness of the relationship with Pakistan. i'll admit to some hyperbole, but this was gutsy, no doubt about it.

Don't forget that it was the "horrors" of the Bush administration that made this raid even possible......via gitmo detainees and intel gathered over the past 10 years - of which GWB was president for 7.

Senate Intel Chair: Torture Did Not Lead To Bin Laden In Any Way | TPMDC

It's true that Obama took a "well-informed" gutsy decision - but then so did GWB when he went into Iraq and Afghanistan. It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had and he acted to protect American lives at home. The same thing could have happened here. The intel could have been false and the SEALS could have been led into a trap, G-d forbid, THEN he would have been as vilified as GWB was.

you are comparing the Iraq War to this particular military operation? i think the difference is that Obama waited for and acted upon the best intellgience available, whereas Bush/Cheney acted upon the intelligence they most wanted to be true in order to justify their predetermined course of action. i am not going to rehash the Iraq War discussions that have been going on in here since 2003, but the fact remains that only ONE person thought that the intelligence about Saddam and his WMDs was worth going to war over.

I'll never forget that it was Pres. Bush who took the first stand against terrorism and the death of this monster couldn't have happened without the accumulated info gathered over the past 10 years.

Bush was hardly the first to "stand" against terrorism, but yes, he did continue the hunt for OBL (started by Clinton) even if he did ignore memos that might have said, "Bin Laden determined to strike within the US" back in August of 2001.

 

[BoMac]

Living near bin Laden’s hideout, locals had their suspicions - thestar.com

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I have heard and read that he was armed, they were fully prepared to take him alive but were not going to let OBL take out Navy Seals (or anyone else) in a firefight-so that's why he was shot. So if that happened either he was armed or he had armed guards/associates who fired.

No one knows yet what actually happened, and we probably will never know the complete accurate account. More fodder for the conspiracy theorists.

Hitler, Saddam, and al-Zarqawi were the other red x covers

 

[BoMac]

Reports are flying of a "massive" explosion at or near the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

I'm just as shocked as the rest of you are, I'm sure.

I hope everyone is okay.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

To all those saying Osama should have been taken alive should take some things into perspective.

Navy SEAL Team Six is the most elite group of men, from the most elite fighting force. They are hand-picked SEALs; the best of the best in their squads. They are given additional training, more intense than anything they've faced before, and there is a 50% attrition rate. Half of the SEALs can't make it.

So these are the strongest, smartest, most professional, and all-around most badass guys on the planet. If it was possible to take Osama alive without putting themselves in more danger, they would have made it happen.

Regardless of whether or not bin Laden had a weapon, he did have a woman in front of him as a human shield. (some reports saying his wife?) Try and put yourself in the SEAL's boots. What would you have done?

 

[canedge]

Get off the self righteous soap box and think about the "non-violent" way 3,000 INNOCENT Americans were slaughtered on that day (I knew 3 of them, 2 of them made it out of the twin towers and the one that did not had his family disintergrate in front of my eyes). And you equate this to the killing of the man who not only took responsibility for these actions but revelled in it's horrific reprecussions.

I see that you have have personal connections and I do not which makes all the difference in the world. When I was quoting MLK I was speaking from a distance. I was speaking 'in theory' that two wrongs don't make a right not from a personal situation of loss.

 

[mama cass]

Oh come on you can't be serious.

So far all we've seen are right leaning sights reporting on these vague off the record accounts(and it's all essentially the same report just shared on several sights). The only quote we've seen doesn't even actually say that he was unarmed. And it admits “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”

at last, a name... is that good enough for you yet BVS?

Carney is meanwhile coming under pressure from reporters at the briefing. They want to know why Bin Laden was not taken alive if he was, as they have now been told, unarmed.

"He resisted. The US personnel on the ground handled themselves with the utmost professionalism and he was killed in an operation because of the resistance that they met," added Carney.

7.05pm: Bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot by US special forces, Jay Carney, a White House spokesman, has told a press briefing.

"Resistance does not require a firearm," said Carney.

Osama bin Laden's death: aftermath and reaction live | News | guardian.co.uk

fwiw, The Guardian isn't exactly a "right leaning sight [sic]"

 

[canedge]

Interesting gaurdian article

What if Bin Laden had stood trial? | Robert Lambert | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

 

[Canadiens1131]

I don't really care if bin Laden was taken alive or not. The SEALs are the best in the world at what they do. I am sure they acted in most rational way possible during the operation.

Don't forget that it was the "horrors" of the Bush administration that made this raid even possible......via gitmo detainees and intel gathered over the past 10 years - of which GWB was president for 7.

It's true that Obama took a "well-informed" gutsy decision - but then so did GWB when he went into Iraq and Afghanistan. It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had and he acted to protect American lives at home. The same thing could have happened here. The intel could have been false and the SEALS could have been led into a trap, G-d forbid, THEN he would have been as vilified as GWB was.

The jury is still out on whether the intelligence leading to the location of bin Laden was gleamed during the CIA's (now over) "enhanced interrogation" (torture) sessions at Guantanamo Bay. Of course the Right is spinning this as justification for Bush administration-authorized torture.

The (Democratic) chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee says that the intel was obtained after the Bush-era interrogations were halted.

I'm not sure if you support torture or think it leads to reliable information (reports have shown it doesn't), but I certainly do not support it. This is an interesting PR beachball being batted around at the moment between propagandists like Matt Drudge and Talking Points Memo.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

� Inside Sources: Bin Laden’s Corpse Has Been On Ice For Nearly a Decade Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

 

[BVS]

at last, a name... is that good enough for you yet BVS?



Osama bin Laden's death: aftermath and reaction live | News | guardian.co.uk

fwiw, The Guardian isn't exactly a "right leaning sight [sic]"

Thank you, I wasn't trying to start anything I'm just very skeptical of such reporting.

Whether or not he was personally armed doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. The likelihood of taking him alive without losing one of their own would be very slim. That's just how these missions work. I respect the call of using a SEAL team rather than a bomb.

 

[Jive Turkey]

While it would've been great to get him alive, he probably would've offed himself before allowing that to happen. Also, why risk the lives of the seals to protect his. I read a quote from, I think it was an ex navy seal who said "That's just how these missions work". I'm sure he must have a lot of covert ops experience to be able to make that kind of statement

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Supposedly some of his own people had orders to kill him before he could be taken or killed by US forces. Obviously that didn't work out, if true.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I don't have net at home currently, and I was watching (don't have cable either)"air" TV on a syndicated channel that did not break into what was running-- so i didn't find out until after 1AM (TV off) when I turned on the radio which was too late to call anybody.

And when I was here @ Interland yesterday (where I am on the Net - obviously) yesterday had too much else to do, and the 2 people on at that point in another thread here were not talking about it so....
this multi-quote is my first interaction- delayed as it.
I skipped on reading pgs ?21 - 26

And speaking of obnoxious, I stayed watching CNN for a little while longer and they were attempting to interview the college kids at Ground Zero causing a ruckus. Not a single one could put together a coherent thought, calling it an out-of-body experience.
"I was in 4th grade when 9/11 happened..." yeah, well, then you don't remember jackshit. Sit down.

I was 7 1/2 when they elected JFK and I remember one set of aunts & uncles (out of 4 sets) who were not voting for him. I was puzzled by this.

I remember The CUban Missile Crisis when I was ? 8 1/2 and because I was scientifically precocious I knew if it went nuclear we wer pretty much all dead.

and of course I remember JFK's assassination at 10 yrs.

but there is a moment when it becomes cheering for the sake of cheering. or faux patriotism. and nothing is more obnoxious than that. there's a big difference between this:

and this:

yup.
and *thanks* for the firemen photo. So god damn poignant!

If I had been outside in like midtown Manhattan I maybe would have jumped up once or twice yelled "woah" ... but the situation is so complex in certain ways I would have sobered down quickly because of that and remembering all who died, were injured physically /or emotionally etc.

Instead I just jabbed my elbow down, fist closed and went "yeah".

I did this several times on Mon as I listened to stuff, and I went down to Ground Zero after I left here.

I haven't been there in like 5? weeks - I don't visit the WFC Plaza/Esplanade/parks north & south of that area almost at all in the winter time except maybe xmas week, or a special art show in the Palm Garden ( the whole area by the water is connected up) or when we have a very warm day in early spring like we did.

Not sure but it seems that they started to clad the new 1 WTC in the glass windows. I'm sure I would have remembered that if I'd seen it
this last time in late March, orearly April.

I wanted to go up by stairs at WFC to see the Memorial is coming along-- but it meant more walking, and it was getting to twilight so later this week or next.

Fourth graders are usually nine or ten years old. Kids that age would easily remember the events of that day. Mine do. My daughter was only seven at the time and she remembers everything that happened that day, down to some of the smallest details. She's seventeen now. She was the first person I texted with the news.

wow.....

Here we go..so predictable. Bush better get credit, damn it.

I heard the clips yesterday of Prs W Bush saying> " I don't really spend much time on Osama anymore" in a press conference or, interview back in 02 or 03? I remember that.

So my brother posted this on his own Facebook page. And then my mom showed up in the comments to out herself as a birther.



There was a lot of sad "Oh, mom" comments following from me and my brother.

We disagree on a great many things, but usually she has a lot more frigging sense than that.

I'm so disappointed in her.

: ( Oh dear, cori. {{hugs}}

.... It can go something like this. He was blown to bits at Tora Bora in early 2002. Not enough was left to identify him. But with the remains and DNA Bush/ Cheney knew they had him. (You may recall this was the original claim) The problem was with OBL dead there would be pressure to call it over. Cheney/Bush did not want to get out of Afghanistan. They had designs on a pipeline among other things. Cheney saw lots of opportunity for billions in Halliburton contracts. But, more importantly, Cheney had big plans for Iraq and needed OBL in the picture to gin up support for that huge sacrifice and billions in more Halliburton contracts. Therefore the premise for Iraq was a false claim of a 911 connection. This had to be out there to keep the American public on board for at least long enough to get it all started.

So as more time went on Obama became aware of the scam.
He had a choice to expose it, without any physical proof.
Or attack this compound with who ever was in there. Grab up some remains and claim a DNA match.

interesting senario

this is quite true. stuff i'm reading shows how engaged Obama was in this whole thing. obviously, the SEALS deserve the lionshare of the credit, but they were backed by a focused, informed, prepared president. and i don't mean that in comparison to Bush -- much of this may have to do with timing, luck, etc. -- but i mean that as an independent evaluation of Obama and how he is conducting the GWOT.

i would lie, though, if i didn't admit to worrying a bit about reprisal attacks, living in DC.

Obama knew things could go wrong and took the chance.

Heh, Irving. Me, too, in NYC.
ANd I thot of DC and all major cities in the USA.

Fanaticism? I do love Obama but I have been known to criticize him too, I know he isn't perfect, but the man has a brain. Come on now.
I don't think I am demonizing Bush by saying that history shows the man has a penchant for starting wars and dropping bombs on people. Shock and Awe?
Ya, Bush was a peacemaker for sure

"Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. "
GWB

THIS.
I have plenty to criticize Prs Obama on, and I have a lot of cheer for him as well.

Ok, I'm prepared to accept that he is dead. I just find the timing of the announcement a bit suspicious.

 

[dazzledbylight]

someone said today that>>
having him buried some where people could get to the site
would just create more of a cultish situation.

i tend to agree...

will look at the previous 2 pages now.



and hi Mrs Springsteen

Spoiler

checking "Greasy Lake" web site as of last thurs no hints of even tour rumors yet

 

[dazzledbylight]

medical experiments?

ANd if you (or anyone else here) are
any kind of metaphysical type person imagine a white light around the cities areas you'd be concerned about might help> While Light is for harmonizing, healing and protection. I know I have/do here in nyc.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

� Inside Sources: Bin Laden’s Corpse Has Been On Ice For Nearly a Decade Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

This guys a douche.

If the government was so good at lying and faking things then how come they couldn't pretend to discover any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

 

[dazzledbylight]

Whether or not he was personally armed doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. The likelihood of taking him alive without losing one of their own would be very slim. That's just how these missions work. I respect the call of using a SEAL team rather than a bomb.

Osama had said he would not be taken alive...
so depending on how his physical condition was at this time AND the fact that under incredible pressure sometimes people can gain extraordinary strength he just - i say might - have been able to do something to kill himself.


and yes very much respect that Prs Obama chose the Seals vs a bomb.

 

[vaz02]

Yeah we got Osama USA USA USA !!!


You want proof ? Thats unamerican. You must be a commie.......


Just a few of the things I've heard today from Americans at work.

 

[waynetravis]

Family photo from the 70's that was in the papers today. He's second from right.
When I saw the pic I thought it said "FDNY" in the store window.