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Old 05-03-2011, 01:27 PM   #391
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Several posts above.
I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:29 PM   #392
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so maybe it was an option?
Yeah, maybe as it played out it could have been an option. Maybe not. I just mean that in planning, you wouldn't be able to make it a goal or even a hopeful outcome.

First priority: Get in and out as fast as possible. Best way to achieve that: No fucking around. So as a possible outcome, you wouldn't place 'capture' any higher than "Yeah, if when you get there, there's no resistance and he's standing there in the courtyard in his underpants waving a white flag, then go for it, but otherwise... no risks."

So if it comes out that this was all actually fairly ordered and simple, that's one thing, but from what we know now - that they had just crashed one chopper, they've just had or are still in the middle of some sort of 'fierce' fire fight, that they were deep within Pakistan, smack in the middle of a military city (ie, lord knows who might be about to show up, and what their reaction will be) - then it could all have been some chaotic madness that could not be contained and slowed down, and if that's the case, then I don't think it's that 'bad' that bin Laden ended up getting shot. And in that split second, whether he was armed or not, a lot could have been going on.

But having said that, I wouldn't care much for anything the Administration is saying about how they would have if they could have. I'd say they're all pretty happy that they didn't and they couldn't.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:42 PM   #393
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guess the whole thing was completely unpredictable... 40 minutes though, that seems quite a long time really, for such a stealth operation...
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #394
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I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
This is what I saw reported earlier today on Politico. White House modifies Osama bin Laden account - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

As I said before, some details are still a bit murky as more and more information becomes available.
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Another official familiar with the operation said it did not appear that any woman was used as a human shield, but that the woman killed and the one injured were hurt in the crossfire. The official said he believed Brennan had mixed up the episode involving bin Laden’s wife with another encounter elsewhere in the compound.

“Two women were shot here. It sounds like their fates were mixed up,” said the U.S. official. “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”

In another discrepancy, Brennan said during his on-the-record briefing that bin Laden’s son Khalid was killed in the attack. However, the official White House transcript had the counterterrorism adviser saying it was another son, Hamza, who perished in the raid.

The White House didn’t offer a reason for any of the changes. However, Brennan noted during his televised briefing that his information came from reports from the scene as well as live video feeds of the raid. “I wasn’t there,” he said.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:55 PM   #395
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Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #396
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It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had
You know, a calm non-cowboy president would have said, hold your horses here, General, I know you wanna use up them troops, but before I sent in the cavalry, let's really be certain before we commit the majority of our attention, manpower and funding to an invasion in a country that may or may not have anything to do with what happened on September 11th.

Iraq was either a shoot from the hip reaction by a bunch of yes men whose only training was "shoot first and ask questions later" or it was planned by a group of men who are as evil as Osama was, and much more damaging to innocent civilians in retrospect.

Of course, you can take a look at what happened this weekend (and since the course of August - TEN WHOLE MONTHS) when the right questions are asked prior to whipping out a gun, the intel gained is cross-verified and the military prowess is limited to a specially trained group instead of a lot of gung ho teens who are part of the shoot first and ask questions later group (see The Tillman Story). Enemy taken out, no soldiers harmed, case closed.

But you know, whatever. That's just me.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #397
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i just worry there might be a backlash, and things might get worse, much worse... al Qaida is fully functional without Bin Laden, he was just a figurehead in the end, but now he is a martyr and there will be revenge surely??
I think there will be a backlash/revenge in the short term, but in the longer term this will be a big blow to al-Qaida. He might've become more a figurehead lately, but he was a very important figurehead. A charismatic leader that unified the group, with probably plenty of ties to wealthy donors and a symbol for people to join al-Qaida.
With him gone, it's up to the #2 to be the leader and from all reports I've seen so far he's a far more divisive figure (for the al-Qaida organisation). Will he be able to attract many new recruits and donors? Plus, with the killing of Bin Laden the USA also sent out a very powerful message that no terrorist is safe. You will be caught. Over the years the USA already caught plenty of #3's in command, but with Bin Laden now gone, the leadership base has become very small.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:00 PM   #398
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I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #399
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yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!
Oh come on you can't be serious.

So far all we've seen are right leaning sights reporting on these vague off the record accounts(and it's all essentially the same report just shared on several sights). The only quote we've seen doesn't even actually say that he was unarmed. And it admits “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #400
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Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?
Who are you?
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:00 PM   #401
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1. The "Horrors" of the Bush administration???????
2. One of the Gutsiest military decisions ever made???

1. i have gone on and on (and on) in here about my problems with GWB. i have no sympathy nor respect for most of what Bush did. he ran this country into the ground in so many ways, i can't begin to list them here. i make no apologies for calling his administration a horror show.

2. it was very gutsy to send in a SEAL team rather than bomb, which is what Sec. Gates initially wanted. especially given the intensity and precariousness of the relationship with Pakistan. i'll admit to some hyperbole, but this was gutsy, no doubt about it.



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Don't forget that it was the "horrors" of the Bush administration that made this raid even possible......via gitmo detainees and intel gathered over the past 10 years - of which GWB was president for 7.

Senate Intel Chair: Torture Did Not Lead To Bin Laden In Any Way | TPMDC


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It's true that Obama took a "well-informed" gutsy decision - but then so did GWB when he went into Iraq and Afghanistan. It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had and he acted to protect American lives at home. The same thing could have happened here. The intel could have been false and the SEALS could have been led into a trap, G-d forbid, THEN he would have been as vilified as GWB was.

you are comparing the Iraq War to this particular military operation? i think the difference is that Obama waited for and acted upon the best intellgience available, whereas Bush/Cheney acted upon the intelligence they most wanted to be true in order to justify their predetermined course of action. i am not going to rehash the Iraq War discussions that have been going on in here since 2003, but the fact remains that only ONE person thought that the intelligence about Saddam and his WMDs was worth going to war over.



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I'll never forget that it was Pres. Bush who took the first stand against terrorism and the death of this monster couldn't have happened without the accumulated info gathered over the past 10 years.

Bush was hardly the first to "stand" against terrorism, but yes, he did continue the hunt for OBL (started by Clinton) even if he did ignore memos that might have said, "Bin Laden determined to strike within the US" back in August of 2001.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:11 PM   #402
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Living near bin Laden’s hideout, locals had their suspicions - thestar.com
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:46 PM   #403
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I have heard and read that he was armed, they were fully prepared to take him alive but were not going to let OBL take out Navy Seals (or anyone else) in a firefight-so that's why he was shot. So if that happened either he was armed or he had armed guards/associates who fired.

No one knows yet what actually happened, and we probably will never know the complete accurate account. More fodder for the conspiracy theorists.

Hitler, Saddam, and al-Zarqawi were the other red x covers

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Old 05-03-2011, 04:01 PM   #404
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Reports are flying of a "massive" explosion at or near the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

I'm just as shocked as the rest of you are, I'm sure.

I hope everyone is okay.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:02 PM   #405
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To all those saying Osama should have been taken alive should take some things into perspective.

Navy SEAL Team Six is the most elite group of men, from the most elite fighting force. They are hand-picked SEALs; the best of the best in their squads. They are given additional training, more intense than anything they've faced before, and there is a 50% attrition rate. Half of the SEALs can't make it.

So these are the strongest, smartest, most professional, and all-around most badass guys on the planet. If it was possible to take Osama alive without putting themselves in more danger, they would have made it happen.

Regardless of whether or not bin Laden had a weapon, he did have a woman in front of him as a human shield. (some reports saying his wife?) Try and put yourself in the SEAL's boots. What would you have done?
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