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Old 05-03-2011, 12:34 PM   #376
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I agree with this but it gets messy when the US keeps assasinating foreign leaders.


like whom? does OBL qualify as a "foreign leader"?
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:35 PM   #377
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maybe it will bring some sort of closure for people who lost loved ones in the bombings since 9/11

i just worry there might be a backlash, and things might get worse, much worse... al Qaida is fully functional without Bin Laden, he was just a figurehead in the end, but now he is a martyr and there will be revenge surely??

also, it bothers me that the story keeps changing - the first official reports claimed he went down fighting didn't they? so was he armed or wasn't he?


Quote:
According to the Pentagon he was identified by name by one of his own wives. As the raiding party closed in on the last unsecured room in the compound, Bin Laden, who according to the White House had no weapon, was shot dead.

40 minutes of fighting, and then two fatal shots | World news | The Guardian
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Osama bin Laden: US changes account of al-Qaida leader's death
US counter-terrorism officials correct earlier claims that al-Qaida chief fired a weapon and that his wife was killed

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Haroon Siddique
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 3 May 2011 16.38 BST
Article history

A building in Osama bin Laden's last refuge, the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where he was killed by US troops. Photograph: KeystoneUSA-ZUMA / Rex Features
The US has backed away from its initial account of the killing of Osama bin Laden, which claimed that the al-Qaida leader was carrying a weapon and fired at US troops before he was shot dead.

On Monday, John Brennan, a counterterrorism adviser to Barack Obama, said Bin Laden was "engaged in a firefight" with his assailants and he did not know if he "got off any rounds". Other US officials briefed that he was firing at members of the US navy's elite Seal Team Six.

However, subsequent briefings by US officials suggest that, when confronted at the high-security complex in Abbottabad, Bin Laden did not have a weapon and did not fire at his assailants. With some questions being raised as to why Bin Laden was shot dead, and whether he was executed, rather than taken into custody, Brennan said: "If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."

Officials have continued to imply he offered resistance before he was shot but have not clarified the extent of that resistance, given that he apparently did not have a weapon. Bin Laden was shot once above the left eye and once in the chest. The Obama administration is considering whether to release photographs of his burial at sea.

There were additional changes to the original narrative offered by US officials. Reporters were initially told that one of Bin Laden's wives was killed while he was using her as a human shield, prompting headlines such as "Osama bin Laden killed cowering behind his 'human shield' wife". But it has since been clarified that Bin Laden's wife was shot in the calf and did not die in the assault, although another woman was killed. This change of account has also raised questions over whether Bin Laden's wife - or anyone else - was being used as a human shield.

One US official told Politico: "Two women were shot here. It sounds like their fates were mixed up. This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed."

As well as amending the condition of Bin Laden's wife, US officials have also changed the name of which of his sons was killed during the raid. The dead son was initially named in press reports as Hamza, described in one article as Bin Laden's "presumed heir" to the leadership of al-Qaida, apparently based on the official White House transcript of a Brennan briefing. However, Brennan said during the briefing that it was another son, Khalid, who was killed.

Qualifying the narrative of the assault that he offered to reporters, Brennan explained that some of the information came from live video feeds of the raid. "I wasn't there," he said.

Osama bin Laden: US changes account of al-Qaida leader's death | World news | guardian.co.uk
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:48 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
Why on earth would they keep the body?
medical experiments?
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:50 PM   #379
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Everyone who keeps saying this, what and how do you suggest this would have happened?

Magic?

The guy was probably the most paranoid man walking the planet(except maybe Glenn Beck) and probably pretty well fortified and armed. How do you take someone alive who is determined to go out fighting?
i dunno BVS, reports are now saying he was actually unarmed...
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #380
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I love this, "Spoken Like a True U2 fan", what a joke. And let me guess you'll start whining because people hate U2 and there over righteous fans.

If U2 is about one thing its about non-violence.
Unfortunately U2 in it's present form is becoming more and more irrelevent, in the grand scheme of things Bono and us fans think we are still the smartest people in the room when in reality we prolly aren't.

Get off the self righteous soap box and think about the "non-violent" way 3,000 INNOCENT Americans were slaughtered on that day (I knew 3 of them, 2 of them made it out of the twin towers and the one that did not had his family disintergrate in front of my eyes). And you equate this to the killing of the man who not only took responsibility for these actions but revelled in it's horrific reprecussions.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:52 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by canedge View Post
It's ugly, but I think the decision is understandable.

Try and think through what immediate risks might have been involved in capturing him, and then how difficult bringing him to trial would have been, and how long it would have taken (years),


I agree with this but it gets messy when the US keeps assasinating foreign leaders.

This has no bearing on the argument at all, but see that quote button on the bottom right-hand side? Can you use it? It would be much easier in terms of figuring out who you're responding to. Thanks.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:55 PM   #382
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You really missed my point. How do you suggest they would have brought him in alive?
In reality, as it played it out, it may or may not have been possible, or easy or hard, but at least from the point of Obama's orders or the operational plan, you could have never, ever, ever make that any kind of goal, or even have expressed any desire for them to try if possible.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:58 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
It's ugly, but I think the decision is understandable.

Try and think through what immediate risks might have been involved in capturing him, and then how difficult bringing him to trial would have been, and how long it would have taken (years), and how messy/political/ugly it almost certainly would have gotten, all the while with this huge symbol still existing - which could mean all sorts of different things.

Again, the story is over. That is probably, simply, what the winning argument is/was. Just end the story.

Also, sort of along those lines, it seems the news of the moment is that something else will be released by the White House - a photo, or video, or something - maybe even today. I don't think they should do that so fast. That will get ugly, fast. They should just get a range of people, journalists from around the world representing all sorts of views/positions, various representatives from other nations, pile them into a room, show them what they've got (video of the raid, photo of bin Laden, video of the sea-burial) and have, say, a hundred people representing a very broad and trustworthy cross section, saying we've seen it, it's legit, let it go. Start there at least. As yolland said a couple of pages ago, release a photo or video, and within 15 minutes... He shouldn't continue to be a symbol of anything, almost especially including mocking and taunting.
i hope they don't release any photos or video footage... i think things could get really ugly if they did that...

plus i don't think the story is over though... Bin Laden might be dead, but the manner of his death might make him/his ideology even more dangerous than before...

also, how long did it take them to dispatch Saddam Hussein??? i cannot remember the timescale for the life of me... i would've liked to have seen Bin Laden brought to trial for the crimes he committed...
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:02 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
In reality, as it played it out, it may or may not have been possible, or easy or hard, but at least from the point of Obama's orders or the operational plan, you could have never, ever, ever make that any kind of goal, or even have expressed any desire for them to try if possible.
in The Guardian quote i posted above:

Quote:
Brennan said: "If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."
so maybe it was an option?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:02 PM   #385
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I don't think they should release anything either, but unfortunately they will have to do so. It's a no-win situation and in this case, transparency trumps everything else.
I never even saw the video of Saddam being hanged. It's just very unnecessary. And I play war video games... a lot.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:10 PM   #386
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i dunno BVS, reports are now saying he was actually unarmed...
I haven't seen this, any links?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:11 PM   #387
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Several posts above.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i think one night of U-S-A chants, in the context of the intense psychological trauma of the past 10 years -- from 9/11 to Iraq and Afghanistan to the horrors of the Bush administration -- is entirely understandable. it's difficult to explain just how dramatically this one act changed so much of American life, and many of these kids have grown up understanding OBL as akin to Emperor Palpatine or some kind of super villian. many, many people joined the armed forces after 9/11 precisely to join in the hunt to bring a mass murderer to justice.


for now, it feels very good, in a grim, sober way, that justice was served, and served by a team of incredibly skilled Navy SEALS who carried out a flawless mission ordered by an informed, cool-as-ice president that has since been recognized as one of the gutsiest military decisions ever made. what happened will be studied in history books and military manuals forever. Obama fucking got him. i'm not going to apologize for the small shot of adrenalized Id that makes me feel right now.

the past 10 years have been horrible. let's at least allow ourselves to feel good about something -- not the death, but about the country actually getting something right for once.
I edited this post to refer to two issues that stagger me:

1. The "Horrors" of the Bush administration???????
2. One of the Gutsiest military decisions ever made???

Don't forget that it was the "horrors" of the Bush administration that made this raid even possible......via gitmo detainees and intel gathered over the past 10 years - of which GWB was president for 7.

It's true that Obama took a "well-informed" gutsy decision - but then so did GWB when he went into Iraq and Afghanistan. It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had and he acted to protect American lives at home. The same thing could have happened here. The intel could have been false and the SEALS could have been led into a trap, G-d forbid, THEN he would have been as vilified as GWB was.

IMPORTANT:
I am not negating Pres. Obama's right to this victory - as commander-in-chief, he needed to make a tough call and G-d gave him the wisdom to make the right decision which led to this triumph - but I'll never forget that it was Pres. Bush who took the first stand against terrorism and the death of this monster couldn't have happened without the accumulated info gathered over the past 10 years.

So congratulations GWB! Congratulations Obama! .......and Semper Fi SEALS!

And most importantly, as I said before, praise to G-d almighty for this wonderful victory.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:18 PM   #389
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I haven't seen this, any links?
i posted the links/quotes higher up this page... have to say, i was a bit taken aback when i read about it...

eta: here they are...

40 minutes of fighting, and then two fatal shots | World news | The Guardian


Osama bin Laden: US changes account of al-Qaida leader's death | World news | guardian.co.uk
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:26 PM   #390
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Great, I hate everyone again. Thanks, thread.
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