Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...t-caleb-keeter-las-vegas-shooting-gun-control

Pro-2nd amendment musician changes his mind after being personally affected by gun violence and realising all the weapons he and his 'brothers' had were useless for multiple reasons. Highlights a startling lack of empathy among a significant portion of the American public, but ultimately better late than never if he remains vocal on his position.

America will never improve as a nation until it can admit and accept that it has failed as a nation. So much good has come out of it which has enriched the entire world, granted, but by clinging to the ideals that it's forefathers enshrined in its constitution hundreds of years ago means it is simply rotten to the core.

Americans are people, and people cannot be trusted with 'freedom'. People are dickbags, who go on shooting sprees when girls don't want to have sex with them. People who jack up the price of life saving drugs by 1000% for profit. People who want to cut their own taxes for a few extra million at the expense of others who struggle to keep a roof over their heads. People who boo an athlete for protesting during the anthem but celebrate their own liberation every July.

The American society of today has not lived up to the ideals upon which it was founded. It was a noble attempt but it has failed miserably. Americans aren't born any extra special than the rest of us and haven't earned any extra freedoms. The sooner it can accept that unfortunate truth, only then can it move forward.

In the meantime, those people with their heads in the sand will keep their elected officials on their side, especially with all the money being poured into their pockets.
 
That's one nice thing to read. But as others here have said and as is being repeated by some outlets right now, if there was nothing after Sandy Hook, nothing's gonna change.
 
That's one nice thing to read. But as others here have said and as is being repeated by some outlets right now, if there was nothing after Sandy Hook, nothing's gonna change.

I've seen a lot of this "well if nothing changed after Sandy Hook..." defeatism today.

I don't think it helps. It plays right into the hands of the NRA and all their cronies who enable mass murder.
 
:eyebrow:

Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better. :|

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.
 
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I have to agree, Axver. I totally get the despair and frustration everyone's feeling right now, believe me. And with a Republican majority in government, I'm even more sympathetic to the feelings of helplessness.

But yeah. This should continue to motivate us to keep pushing and keep banging the drum and demanding change instead. Even if the change is slow and small at first, any steps in the right direction are worth encouraging and supporting, and we need to keep fighting on all levels where possible, and throw our support behind organizations that try and push for tighter gun control.

And the NRA can fuck right off and disappear.
 
:eyebrow:

Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better. :|

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.



Woah where the fuck did this come from?

Australia is horribly racist, not to mention homophobic, and certainly no better in some regards, but not sure why you’re offended by some harsh truths.

If anything the response should be a call to arms to make America’s reality match with its ideals. Gun control and universal health care would be two good places to start.

Just ask us.
 
or us.

this time last week i sliced my leg wide open with a piece of broken glass sticking out of a garbage bag. i was home alone and called 911. the ambulance came and took me to the emergency room, i waited about two hours, got a dozen stitches and came home. today i got a bill in the mail for the ambulance ride, 45 bucks total. i can submit the invoice to my work health insurance and not pay a dime for treatment for an injury that could have killed me if i had left it untreated.

if i had to pay for all of that out of pocket, or a big insurance deductible, i'd be absolutely fucked because i need all my savings for moving at the end of the month. even though it wouldn't have been huge, the cost would definitely have come to mind after i realized i was hurt, and honestly would have made me think twice about calling for an ambulance, even though in hindsight i *absolutely* needed one.

i honestly don't understand how universal health care is such a hated thing for some people. it's such a no brainer the only difficulty should be in working out the ideal system. the benefits to society and individuals so far outweigh the costs and there are many good examples all over the world that can easily be pointed to.
 
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America is a land of contradiction. We have these lofty founding ideals such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...but the person who wrote that owned other people. We have never even come close to living up to our founding ideals. I'm with Cobbler on this one
 
:eyebrow:

Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better. :|

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.



As cobs said, Australia has some deeply engrained issues that we're struggling with. We are far from perfect, but don't tout ourselves as such either. What I am indignant about is America's proud view of itself as a city on a shining hill / the Greatest Nation on Earth, of American Exceptionalism, of its God Given Rights based on a 200 year old document written by a group of mortal men.

Look at AEON repeatedly asking why some many people keep flocking to America, it must be because it's the best right? It's that arrogance and ultra patriotism that seems increasingly unjustified when looking at the reality of the situation.

I'm not ragging on having those ideals, and certainly not the people trying to live up to them, but merely having ideals doesn't mean you've followed through on them. I don't think America as a whole has. I hope you do better and I see the struggle to do better by many people, now including that dude in the news article who has found a new perspective on gun control. But until you change the underlying fabric of America (the Constitution) real change will never happen.

It's a hard truth and is definitely judgemental. I don't mean any personal offence, I enjoy your posts. And I'm not trying to sound superior, rather just saying that underneath it all America is just as shitty as the rest of us, just without the moment of awareness that leads to real change in this particular area. It's a shame you got so defensive when I criticised your country not living my up to its own standards, again like cobs said, prove me wrong, actually be better and truly lead the world if you want. But just claiming something doesn't make it so.

And I could go on about the free market being a great idea that has failed in some major aspects, but it ultimately boils down to people being selfish when edit unchecked.
 
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I'm on vacation and received a text alert that there was a reported of an active shooter on my campus. Turns out a professor freaked out and made a false report. I was so scared for my coworkers, friends and our students. I hate that we live in a country where we have to regularly have active shooter drills at work.
 
Apologies in advance for going on, but a bunch of this has been in my mind for a while now.

America has also failed to live up to its own fucking name. The United States of America is filled with people who strongly advocate for individual states rights, who believe that beyond the ancient and out of touch constitution, states should govern themselves. That's not being united. The very concept of federalism baffles me. I get that different states have different needs and such a large and varied country can't have one size fits all laws for everything, but healthcare? Gun laws? Splitting the country up has made these no win endeavours, which is so sad when they have so many other countries to look to and emulate. Watching marriage equality make a slow, state by state was frustrating when it should have been a national decision. Why does an American in one state have different rights to an American in another state? Thankfully that was passed, you're one up on Australia there.

I'm going in danger of just shouting at clouds now, but happy to discuss further with anyone.
 
cobbler, mnkskn, Dave

I guess first>
"just ask us" Oh, I've been reading about, listening to (thank you public radio), and occasionally talking with Europeans, and Canadians for decades! :)
That's how i know about issues, and various policies in other countries (also rest of the World), and have learned from them. That's why I fight for single payer here, and at least keeping the ACA/Obamacare for now.

I hate the extreme forms of Capitalism -crony, laissez faire! Sometime soon I'll have to c&p FDR's Second Economic Bill of Rights that was lost because he died in office ( you might be amazed- I was -didn't even know about this till 5 yes ago!)
Even putting Social Security in place back then our Conservatives and right wing Republicans have been trying to dismantle it once it passed( they fought it tooth and nail) , along with the later on adoptions of Medicare & Medicaid! And other programs.

Will con't in a min ... OK onwards

They have been screaming "Socialism" since the 1940's on all if this! America could use some more Democratic socialism of the Nordic type.

You may not know the term "Amerika" (Dave might ) It was coined in "The 60's" (lived through that ) to denote racism , and other oppressions.
I rejected it early on not because of the racist aspect (I learned about racism early on), but people using it usually coupled it with hard socialism, or communism.

I can use it now because while I reject communism and hard socialism , but it still a quick trope to highlight certain issues I agree with, always along with America - the best of our ideals.

As to that - ideals...

I still think there us a lot of good in our Constitution and our Bull of Rights. And we dare NOT have a Constitutional Convention right with our current Congress and President! :yikes:

I've heard at least one person on public radio say America is the first country to bind itself to such ideals.

Now as some of us make New Year's Resolutions each year (or not).... if you start but kind of fade away on it, and feel bad, try again IR try the next year- do you call yourself a "failed person"? More off you might say "aaaa, I screwed that up!".

That's why I reject, cobbler, you over arching "failed nation" appellation.

Is America in terrible, TERRIBLE trouble? YES, yes we are. But we are still fighting. As long as there are the "us" that are fighting - we have not failed.

I only am defensive about this point, not the individual issues you've pointed out. We have a loooong way to GI with our ideals but there are places and times where we have them much closer at least for awhile.

Oh yeah, and I believe in gun control!

I'll have to look more closely at your further states rights comments :) as I'm getting tired!
 
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You know, it's not an easy thing walking through the world where everyone has an opinion/comment/grievance/criticism of your country, and they really want to tell you about it. Especially when people don't know nearly as much as they think they do, and there's a natural but annoying tendency to think 320m people are of one mind, or all act the same (the whole "you people" mentality, which is gross even when talking about the wealthy and the powerful) and there's a monocausal explanation for really complex realities. One thing I've learned over the years to try and do when I travel is to illuminate these complexities while at the same time *ask questions* and *listen* to people when they talk about their own countries rather than "let me tell you about your country." I know that I don't know things.

I generally agree with a lot of criticism, and I'm about as anti-gun and pro-health care as anyone in here, but there are reason why things are the way that they are, and we'd be better off learning why rather than finger wagging.
 
White people are too afraid that brown people are a) getting something they haven't earned or b) getting more than white people of the same station. They would rather no one get anything.

Ain't that the truth... Except since there still are for now over all more white people than people of color there are still more white people getting this help.
 
You know, it's not an easy thing walking through the world where everyone has an opinion/comment/grievance/criticism of your country, and they really want to tell you about it. Especially when people don't know nearly as much as they think they do, and there's a natural but annoying tendency to think 320m people are of one mind, or all act the same (the whole "you people" mentality, which is gross even when talking about the wealthy and the powerful) and there's a monocausal explanation for really complex realities.

Did you mean to play the victim card here? It comes across as if the rest of the worlds continued dismay at America's ongoing mass shooting problem is somehow bigoted?

I don't lump every American into a hive mind, millions of Americans appear to be for progressive change whilst millions remain opposed. But this is a uniquely American problem (more guns and more gun deaths than any other developed nation) caused by a uniquely American issue (treating the Constitution as sacrosanct). It's similar to like him or not, and despite his vote count, Donald Trump represents every last living American on a global level. Some things you do get lumped in together for.

One thing I've learned over the years to try and do when I travel is to illuminate these complexities while at the same time *ask questions* and *listen* to people when they talk about their own countries rather than "let me tell you about your country." I know that I don't know things.

There have been over 1500 posts regarding ongoing mass shootings on this American based forum, I think those of us from outside the US have listened up to this point. And do you think that while other countries have successfully taken steps to eradicate gun violence on this scale, we should still sit quietly and defer to America on the issue when it doesn't have any solution on the horizon? All America does is talk about the issue, it never acts. Personally, I'm proud to be a citizen of two nations which took swift and immediate action in the wake of a mass shooting. We've tried to tell America but it continues to fall on deaf ears.

I generally agree with a lot of criticism, and I'm about as anti-gun and pro-health care as anyone in here, but there are reason why things are the way that they are, and we'd be better off learning why rather than finger wagging.


When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.
 
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Did you mean to play the victim card here? It comes across as if the rest of the worlds continued dismay at America's ongoing mass shooting problem is somehow bigoted?

I don't lump every American into a hive mind, but this is a uniquely American problem (more guns and more gun deaths than any other developed nation) caused by a uniquely American issue (treating the Constitution as sacrosanct). It's similar to like him or not, and despite his vote count, Donald Trump represents every last living American on a global level. Some things you do get lumped in together for.



There have been over 1500 posts regarding ongoing mass shootings on this American based forum, I think those of us from outside the US have listened up to this point. And do you think that while other countries have successfully taken steps to eradicate gun violence on this scale, we should still sit quietly and defer to America on the issue when it doesn't have any solution on the horizon? All America does is talk about the issue, it never acts. Personally, I'm proud to be a citizen of two nations which took swift and immediate action in the wake of a mass shooting. We've tried to tell America but it continues to fall on deaf ears.




When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.




So you kind of just did exactly what I was talking about, right down to the "you people."
 
Does my personal criticism of America have no validity, or does the mere fact I'm criticising America cause it to lose all validity to an American?
 
Does my personal criticism of America have no validity, or does the mere fact I'm criticising America cause it to lose all validity to an American?



Really too tired to read every single post, but if you're criticizing "America," it's like you're not reading this thread and the Americans in it. There's obviously two types of Americans on this issue.

Is one wrong for a criticism like this? Maybe generalizing, but probably not wrong. Is one helping? Absolutely not. It's a nose up choice of words.
 
This forum is decidedly left leaning and this particular thread tends to condemn and express sadness towards any attack. I can read just fine, thanks.

But the fact that there are two obvious types of Americans on either side of this issue doesn't change the fact that it is still, hundreds of incidents in the wake of Sandy Hook and possibly thousands since Columbine, a major issue yet to be resolved. And why is that? The issue appears to be rooted in the American Constitution and Bill of Rights which is viewed as sacrosanct enough that changing it is not an option. A pity.

I also don't see the problem in generalising 'America' based on its own constitution and legally elected officials. What would be more appropriate? Every country has an identity. We can condemn Britain for the Brexit vote and praise France and Germany for their recent elections, despite people voting to Remain and for far right parties.

I also didn't realise that every post we made here had to help. Maybe by Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 5 everyone else posting in here will have made a difference.

I'm not sure what you meant with that 'nose up' typo, but I'll just say that as an onlooker to the mass shootings in the US, it's exasperating to watch the complete lack of action. But apparently expressing that sentiment can get even some anti-gun Americans defensive and indignant.
 
When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.

Precisely, and your critiques are sharp - even if some of the American posters in here are getting a little too defensive. Yes, we all know that the US is a country with a complex history and society. Funnily enough, so is every other country. Our gun control, our healthcare, our labour laws, our environmental protections, and the like have all been hard won in the face of great challenges. We might just have learnt a few things along the way.

There may be many Americans fighting for these things, but it is necessary to accept that, at an institutional level, the US is currently defined and projected to the world as representing certain values or positions that are, put simply, retrograde and repugnant. These demand strident criticism, and those within America who desire change should be concurring with it, not silencing it and suggesting the debate can only be an internal one. When your country is as large and as powerful as America, your domestic issues have wider ramifications and will be subject to external scrutiny. And shouldn't an outside - and, generally, a more detached - perspective be welcomed?

Playing the "but your country has other problems" card is both specious and disingenuous. Plus, you know, we own it. If you want to condemn Australia for its Pacific gulags for asylum seekers, go for it, I will most likely agree 100%; I will particularly welcome your perspective if you have proposals for solutions, much like those of us from Australia can criticise US gun laws and point to our own highly successful laws as a better option if only Americans as a body politic could relax their obsession with the constitution for a minute. Similarly, if you want to condemn New Zealand for its current housing crisis or some of the stalled aspects of Treaty of Waitangi negotiations, please do. I have never seen an Aussie or Kiwi get defensive when a foreigner takes an interest in our politics and levels valid criticisms. Americans across the Internet and other media have made it an art.
 
This forum is decidedly left leaning and this particular thread tends to condemn and express sadness towards any attack. I can read just fine, thanks.


There's a specific irony of you telling me you can read just fine, when I never said you couldn't.


But the fact that there are two obvious types of Americans on either side of this issue doesn't change the fact that it is still, hundreds of incidents in the wake of Sandy Hook and possibly thousands since Columbine, a major issue yet to be resolved. And why is that? The issue appears to be rooted in the American Constitution and Bill of Rights which is viewed as sacrosanct enough that changing it is not an option. A pity.


And we don't disagree that there's a huge problem. You don't have to declare this in this post right here.

I also don't see the problem in generalising 'America' based on its own constitution and legally elected officials. What would be more appropriate? Every country has an identity. We can condemn Britain for the Brexit vote and praise France and Germany for their recent elections, despite people voting to Remain and for far right parties.


Who is "we?" As an American who lives in Britain, I don't criticize "Britain" when about half of the voting population didn't want that. That's so counterproductive. Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???


I also didn't realise that every post we made here had to help. Maybe by Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 5 everyone else posting in here will have made a difference.

You're being a dick.
 
Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???

There's a reason why white people say things like (and I'll make this specific to Australia) "all the stuff with the Aboriginals happened hundreds of years ago, can't we just drop it and all move on? I didn't commit the crime, why should I do the time?"

It's classic logical fallacy. You think you win because you make the argument go away because technically, it's very true; but if we choose that as our standard than Aboriginal peoples will be consigned to poverty forever.

We are innocent, we didn't commit the crime, we all largely agree here... but if we take the path of getting pissy on criticism and not doing anything because we're personally innocent, then I'd argue we aren't really taking any positive action.
 
First off, co-sign everything Ax wrote far more succinctly than I've been able to.

There's a specific irony of you telling me you can read just fine, when I never said you couldn't.

Really too tired to read every single post, but if you're criticizing "America," it's like you're not reading this thread and the Americans in it.


I don't know if this is just fancy double talking, simile using debate tactic, but I'll rephrase. I have read this thread.

And we don't disagree that there's a huge problem. You don't have to declare this in this post right here.

It's great that we don't disagree here. I'll keep declaring it while it's an ongoing issue though.

Who is "we?" As an American who lives in Britain, I don't criticize "Britain" when about half of the voting population didn't want that. That's so counterproductive. Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???

Fine, "one" can condemn the Brexit vote if we're going to be pedantic. It was a national referendum that Britain voted for. It didn't have to be unanimous but it has results in UK representatives currently trying to negotiate with the EU for an exit. I have friends who voted against it and family who voted for it, and I'm ashamed that the country overall voted for it, especially as my home town was among the stronger Leavers.

You're being a dick.

Mate, I'd love to be proved wrong, I really would. I just don't see the necessary change happening when even people here are getting defensive over the issue. I also don't get why the charge of an unhelpful post was only levelled at me. And pretty rich coming from you calling me a dick, when you didn't even show me the respect of reading all my posts before wading in with your two cents. Tired at 5pm? Jet lag must be killing you, but not enough for you to try and win the nearest argument.

Look, yes there are people in America who are trying to put an end to this rampant gun violence. But so far very little has happened, and what has been achieved is nowhere near the extents to which other countries went to in order to quash it for good. This level of gun violence in America is a uniquely American problem largely caused by American values and outdated articles. When I say America is a failure to live up to its high ambitions, I don't mean to personally denigrate every last citizen, but the system in which they all live. Harsh, but there is more emphasis on keeping instruments of death in everyone's hands than healing them.
 
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There's a reason why white people say things like (and I'll make this specific to Australia) "all the stuff with the Aboriginals happened hundreds of years ago, can't we just drop it and all move on? I didn't commit the crime, why should I do the time?"



It's classic logical fallacy. You think you win because you make the argument go away because technically, it's very true; but if we choose that as our standard than Aboriginal peoples will be consigned to poverty forever.



We are innocent, we didn't commit the crime, we all largely agree here... but if we take the path of getting pissy on criticism and not doing anything because we're personally innocent, then I'd argue we aren't really taking any positive action.


I'm not saying anything of the sort, though. At all.

I'm saying preaching not to but at the choir isn't helpful. It's not a logical fallacy - I'm absolutely not simply making the problem go away.

Personally I feel disgusted by gun violence. I feel victimized in the past by gun violence. I had a gun pulled on me when I was 11 for yelling at a guy who flicked my friend off. Christina Grimmie was murdered literally next door to me the night before my birthday while I was there. I frequently forget that horror if only because of the nightmare that still haunts me was Pulse, just one day later and right down the road.

I'm definitely not the only one who can share stories like these. People are directly and indirectly impacted by this all the time.

Simply taking some blanket and saying "oh Americans _______" or "Australians ________" fill in your generalization... it's not helping. It has no use. All I hear is a nationalist comparison of why someone is better than the other.
 
I don't know if this is just fancy double talking, simile using debate tactic, but I'll rephrase. I have read this thread.


It's not a debate tactic. Your first comment seemed to suggest I was insulting you. I wasn't. I was merely saying I don't think you are listening to the voices and just how frustrated/disgusted/hurt/you name it that people are right now.






Mate, I'd love to be proved wrong, I really would. I just don't see the necessary change happening when even people here are getting defensive over the issue. I also don't get why the charge of an unhelpful post was only levelled at me.


And from a nation of over 300 million people, I guarantee you that there are so many tens to hundreds of millions of disgusted people who don't understand how change hasn't been made. Victims whose voices don't get heard. Advocates whose words get ignored. Voters who feel the political system neglects their real identity. People would get defensive if no matter how much they scream in a shitty vacuum, they don't make a sound, and you wag your finger at a collective "you people."

Sure, the folks who say "if nothing changed after sandy hook, nothing ever will" are unhelpful. Someone already made that point standing against that.



And pretty rich coming from you calling me a dick, when you didn't even show me the respect of reading all my posts before wading in with your two cents. Tired at 5pm? Jet lag must be killing you, but not enough for you to try and win the nearest argument.

You feel disrespected because I didn't read pages of arguments and debate? Really, disrespected? I'm enjoying Australia for the first time. I'm also incredibly sick right now. I'm also roaming on my data. So I wanted to comment...I gave a heads up that I hadn't read it all. It's not disrespectful. But you made a comment suggesting that everyone in here was just a giant stereotype or meme of people who talk and don't do shit about it - what would you do?
 
And I went back and read it all and I find myself having used the exact same words as Irvine (without having read his full post). Something about wagging fingers and you people.
 
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