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Old 11-26-2008, 09:52 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
I'm talking about advisors. If advisors know it's shit then they don't have to invest in it.
If they can get in and out before the shit rolls down hill, why wouldn't they invest in it? Since when do we assume that there is some code of morality or ethics on Wall Street that would preclude this type of thing from happening?
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:50 PM   #77
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If they can get in and out before the shit rolls down hill, why wouldn't they invest in it? Since when do we assume that there is some code of morality or ethics on Wall Street that would preclude this type of thing from happening?
I'm not assuming morality on their part. If there are no regulations against packaging investments you can't really sue anyone. That's why new regulations have to be put in place and accounting rules. When the regulations are in place and people break them then you have grounds to sue.

Crooks are always inventing ways to try and steal from the public.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:31 PM   #78
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looks like consumers continue to take oscar's suggestions to heart:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/bu...l?ref=business

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In the third quarter of this year, according to revised figures issued by the Commerce Department this week, personal consumption spending, after adjusting for inflation, fell at an annual rate of 2.7 percent, the biggest fall since the second quarter of 1980.

The depth of that decline was a little misleading, because the second quarter was pumped up by the tax rebates from the stimulus package. But even without the stimulus, the third quarter number would have shown a decline.

Over all, the economy contracted at a rate of 0.5 percent in the quarter. Most economists say they think the current quarter will be much worse than that.

One reason for that expectation is a belief that many Americans will keep spending in check during the current holiday season, as many say they will.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:51 PM   #79
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Good for Americans. Going into more debt because economists want you to doesn't mean it's good for you.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:37 PM   #80
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If Black Friday spending is historically a good barometer of consumer confidence, early reports are that it's up over 2007 levels.
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:28 PM   #81
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Economy: Obama chooses those who have a record of failure
A European Viewpoint

by Damien Millet and Dr. Eric Toussaint

Committee for the Abolition of Third World Debt (CADTM)


Some expected Barack Obama, the newly elected president of the United States, to appoint a completely new economic team so as to implement another New Deal. Obama was going to completely change capitalism, since he couldn’t actually do away with it, and a whole new series of economic regulations were supposed to be on the books. But in fact Obama has selected the most conservative among the Democrats advisors; the very ones who organised frenzied deregulation when Bill Clinton was president at the end of the 1990s. The consistence of his choice, through three emblematic names, is revealing.

Robert Rubin was Secretary of the Treasury from 1995 to 1999. As soon as he came into office he had to face a financial crisis in Mexico , which was the first major failure of the neoliberal model in the 1990s. Later, hand in hand with the IMF, he enforced shock therapies that actually worsened the crises that occurred in South-East Asia in 1997-98 and in Russia and Latin America in 1999. Never for a moment did Rubin doubt the benefits of liberalisation and he contributed to imposing on the populations of developing countries the very policies which have caused their living conditions to deteriorate and social inequality to deepen. In the United States he insisted on the abrogation of the Glass Steagall Act – officially named the Banking Act - voted in 1933 to ensure that deposit banks and investment banks were not in the same hands. Its abrogation opened the door to all sorts of excesses on the part of finance people greedy for more profits, and eventually led to the current international crisis. To come a full circle, the repeal of Banking Act made it possible for Citicorp to merge with Travelers Group and become the banking giant Citigroup. Rubin was later to become one of the main executive officers of Citigroup… which the US government recently bailed out in November 2008 in that it guaranteed over 300 billion dollars of assets! And in spite of his record, Rubin is one of Obama’s main advisors.

Lawrence Summers has been appointed to the position of Director of the National Economic Council, a position inside the White House. Yet his CV is marred by a number of stains, some of which should have been indelible… In December 1991, when he was the World Bank’s chief economist, Summers went so far as to write in an internal note: The under-populated countries of Africa are largely under-polluted. Their air quality is unnecessarily good compared to Los Angeles or Mexico (...) There needs to be greater migration of pollutant industries towards the least developed countries (...) and greater concern about a factor increasing the risk of prostate cancer in a country where people live long enough to get the disease, than in a country where 200 children per thousand die before the age of five.[1] He even adds, still in 1991: There are no limits on the planet ' s capacity for absorption likely to hold us back in the foreseeable future. The danger of an apocalypse due to global warming or anything else is non-existent. The idea that the world is heading into the abyss is profoundly wrong. The idea that we should place limits on growth because of natural limitations is a serious error; indeed, the social cost of such an error would be enormous if ever it were to be acted upon.[2] With Summers at the helm productivist capitalism has a bright future ahead.
When he became Secretary of the Treasury under Clinton in 1999, he exerted pressure on the president of the WB, James Wolfensohn, for him to get rid of Joseph Stiglitz, who had succeeded him as chief economist and who was highly critical of the neoliberal policies that Summers et Rubin were implementing wherever financial fires broke out on the surface of the earth. After George W. Bush’s arrival he became president of Harvard University in 2001, and hit the headlines in February 2005 when he antagonised the academic community in a debate within the National Bureau of Economic Research.[3] Asked why there are so few women in senior positions in the scientific field he claimed that women are naturally less gifted for scientific studies than men and swept aside possible explanations based on family or social background, or on discrimination. This led to a hot controversy[4] both within and outside academia. Although he did apologise, under besiege by the outraged Harvard professors and students, he had to resign in 2006.
While his part of responsibility for the current situation is not proven, his biography, on the Harvard university website, claims that he “led the effort to enact the most sweeping financial deregulation in 60 years”.[5] One can hardly be more explicit!

Finally, Timothy Geithner has been appointed Secretary of the Treasury. Currently president and chief executive officer of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York he used to be Undersecretary of the Treasury for International Affairs from 1998 to 2001, under Rubin and Summers successively, and active in Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia, South Korea, and Thailand, which are all text-book cases of the damage ultraliberalism can wreak and which were all in deep crisis dueing that period. The measures put forward by this infernal trio led to the populations of these countries bearing the brunt the crises. Rubin and Summers are Geithner’s mentors. Now the pupil is catching up with his masters. No doubt he will continue to defend major private financial institutions and remain deaf to fundamental human rights, which are flouted in the United States and throughout the world as a consequence of the economic policies he so vehemently advocates.

Claiming that you intend to regulate the global economy while giving decisional power to people who are responsible for its deregulation, is like giving the job of fireman to arsonists.
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:48 AM   #82
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It's almost like some people wanted Obama to be a marxist.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:22 PM   #83
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It's almost like some people wanted Obama to be a marxist.
In this forum. Yes.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:58 PM   #84
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It's almost like some people wanted Obama to be a marxist.
in what ways do you think that to be the case?
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:56 AM   #85
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In this forum. Yes.

I think if I were to make a list of who wanted Obama to be a Marxist, you would be first on the list, that way all your "socialist" comments wouldn't sound so paranoid...

So in a sense, you're right.

I don't say that much about your posts.
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:21 PM   #86
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I think if I were to make a list of who wanted Obama to be a Marxist, you would be first on the list, that way all your "socialist" comments wouldn't sound so paranoid...

So in a sense, you're right.

I don't say that much about your posts.
Notice the wink.
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:55 PM   #87
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writers at salon, however, have not been listening to oscar:

Spend, Obama, spend! And save jobs | Salon

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The best way - and perhaps the only way - to forestall disastrous unemployment is to stop the budgetary bleeding in the states. That is why Congress should be prepare a bill providing immediate emergency relief to the states, ready for signature on January 20, 2009 -- and why Obama's first act as president should be to sign it, and start sending checks.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:04 PM   #88
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The only way to give foreign investors (mainly China) a return on their USD investment is to keep Americans buying useless imported 'stuff'. They can only do that if they're employed so while amping up public works sounds like a solid employment plan, are workers in way too much debt to keep spending at a rate required by the Chinese population to maintain their own employment rates?

China will only remain invested in America if it provides a reasonable rate of return to keep their people and government secure.

Most working Americans are tapped out and spooked about looming unemployment. Even those not concerned about losing their jobs are probably more focused on getting out of debt rather than spending and taking on additional debt, regardless of the low interest rates.

All the usual stimulus plans aren't working and everywhere you turn these days you hear the word unprecedented to describe just about everything.

If the problems have no historical context, neither do the solutions.
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:42 AM   #89
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The only way to give foreign investors (mainly China) a return on their USD investment is to keep Americans buying useless imported 'stuff'. They can only do that if they're employed so while amping up public works sounds like a solid employment plan, are workers in way too much debt to keep spending at a rate required by the Chinese population to maintain their own employment rates?

China will only remain invested in America if it provides a reasonable rate of return to keep their people and government secure.

Most working Americans are tapped out and spooked about looming unemployment. Even those not concerned about losing their jobs are probably more focused on getting out of debt rather than spending and taking on additional debt, regardless of the low interest rates.

All the usual stimulus plans aren't working and everywhere you turn these days you hear the word unprecedented to describe just about everything.

If the problems have no historical context, neither do the solutions.
Good points here.

If China could find better interest rates on their U.S. bonds elsewhere what would U.S. interest rates have to do to keep them there?

If China sells their bonds where will the cash come from to pay off the bonds? Print money? Massive tax increases? There's personal, corporate, government debt already. Maybe they can get other countries to lend to them, maybe. Everyone is trying to lower their interest rates now so there may not be any competition for the moment, yet it could change. A run on the U.S. dollar would be a shock.
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:30 PM   #90
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If China could find better interest rates on their U.S. bonds elsewhere what would U.S. interest rates have to do to keep them there?
Sorry, I shouldn't have used the term rate of return. I don't think interest rates are particularly relevant to Chinese USD investment, although that could be wrong. Their return comes from export revenue.

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If China sells their bonds where will the cash come from to pay off the bonds? Print money?
Likely. That's where the hyperinflation risk (after a period of deflation) comes from.

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Massive tax increases?
Not as likely - spending on social security and healthcare and other safety nets would be cut instead.

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A run on the U.S. dollar would be a shock.
But not necessarily a bad thing. The monetary system is broken and needs radical reform.
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