Obama's pandering is really making me sick! Allows anti-gay activist to speak - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-26-2008, 03:53 PM   #61
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Just look at this family that he didn't want to meet with, talk about unnatural, thank goodness those men's marriage is in question, and the kids look like they're being damaged too by living with a couple of gay dudes.

More "out" same-sex-headed families like this is probably one of the best things that could happen for the marriage equality movement. Try looking these couples' children in the eye and telling them that their parents aren't worthy of marriage, like their friends' and classmates' heterosexual parents are; that they just aren't "ideal" enough, that the family formed by them and the two people they love and trust most is "setting a bad example for society."
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:15 PM   #62
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I notice this thread has been overlooked by a certain poster. Perhaps it's too hard to look them in the eye even in a photo?
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:07 AM   #63
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I notice this thread has been overlooked by a certain poster. Perhaps it's too hard to look them in the eye even in a photo?


5,000 years, martha.

5,000 years!!!

/irvine returns to vacation, kicking himself with his sandy feet for sneaking a peak at FYM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:31 PM   #64
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I think this is being over-blown by some Obama detractors.

Let's at least give Obama six to 12 months in office, before we want to say what kind of a president he is, or judge how he is treating certain constituencies or groups.


As for Rick Warren, at least this episode has put the spotlight on some of his more outlandish statements, ( I was going to say beliefs, but his beliefs seem to be fluid - a good thing! )

The website has taken down much of it's nonsense statements,
Warren has said he now does not equate gay behavior with incest or pedophilia.

Some of his followers that had these more hard core views, now must choose to stay with him or move over to a more extreme Religious leader.
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:45 PM   #65
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I think this is being over-blown by some Obama detractors.
If this wasn't "over-blown" as you say, do you think any of these things:

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The website has taken down much of it's nonsense statements,
Warren has said he now does not equate gay behavior with incest or pedophilia.
would have happened?
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:17 AM   #66
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oh, please.

his middle name is Hussein. he defeated the two biggest brand names in American politics -- Clinton, and McCain. don't forget, 4 years ago McCain was the most popular politician in America.

underestimate his skills at your own peril. believe him to be a puppet at your own risk. but do recognize that he does not walk on water, never did, and that he lives under the same system that we all do.

and if you want to discuss the shrewd but entirely contemptible Warren subject, there's another thread.

also, the US has vastly more complex foreign policy pursuits than just securing "justice" for the Palestinians.

it amazes me how much attention this single issue gets. millions of Congolese have died in the past 6 years, but who cares about that? i guess it's because they're not being killed by Jews?
No, like Darfur, that's a tragedy, too. However, America has a great role in Israeli terrorism. It's American sabotage of the UN and other international institutions that has allowed this violation to fester. Moreover, American arms and weaponry are what are used to kill Palestinians. For all those claiming tenuous connections between Iran and Al Qaeda that are improbable, here's a state sponsor of terror, for ya!
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:01 PM   #67
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edit: Ehh... wrongish thread.
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:59 PM   #68
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so what, are you trying to tell me that obama is a politician?
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:02 AM   #69
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The Associated Press: Rick Warren's biggest critics: other evangelicals

Rick Warren is in a place he never expected to be: at the center of a culture war.

The pastor chosen by President-elect Barack Obama to give the inaugural invocation backed Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in his home state of California. But he did so belatedly, with none of the enthusiasm he brings to fighting AIDS and illiteracy.

When other conservative Christians held stadium rallies and raised tens of millions of dollars for the ballot effort, there was no sign of Warren. Neither he nor his wife, Kay, donated any of their considerable fortune to the campaign, according to public records and the Warrens' spokesman.

In fact, his endorsement seemed calculated for minimal impact. It was announced late on a Friday, just 10 days before Election Day, on a Web site geared for members of his Saddleback Community Church, not the general public.

For gay rights advocates, that strategy was nothing more than an attempt to mask Warren's prejudice. They were outraged that Obama decided last week to give a place of honor to a pastor they consider a general for the Christian right.

Lost in the uproar was the irony of Warren's plight. Ever since he began his climb to prominence in the 1980s, he has battled complaints from fellow evangelicals that he isn't nearly conservative enough.

"The comments from many of the evangelicals further to the right of him are often critical for his lax stance on their passionate issues," said Scott Thumma, a professor at Connecticut's Hartford Seminary who researches megachurches and writes about the challenges for gay and lesbian Christians.

On paper, Warren might look like any other religious traditionalist. He is the son of a Southern Baptist pastor, graduate of a Southern Baptist seminary, and his megachurch in Orange County is part of the conservative denomination.

But Warren holds a different worldview than his roots suggest.

He has spoken out against the use of torture to combat terrorism. He has joined the fight against global warming and, encouraged by his wife, has put his prestige and money behind helping people with AIDS. The Warrens have done so at a time when a notable number of conservative Christians still consider the virus a punishment from God.

"If you want to save a life, I don't care what your background is and I don't care what your political party is," Warren said in a recent interview with The Associated Press. "I think some of these humanitarian issues transcend politics, or ethnic or religious beliefs."

While many religious conservatives openly condemn Islam as inherently evil, Warren reaches out to the American Muslim community. This past Saturday, he gave the keynote address at the convention of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, based in Los Angeles.

"His social consciousness is somewhat left of center, but his theological, ethical stance is right of center," said the Rev. William Leonard, a critic of the Southern Baptist Convention and dean of Wake Forest Divinity School in North Carolina. "That's the thing that makes him potentially a bridge person."

Warren's outlook has come at a price. Many from the Christian right don't trust him.

A registered independent who does not endorse candidates, he has called old guard evangelical activists too partisan and overly focused on gay marriage and abortion.

In the run-up to the Saddleback forum he led last August with Obama and Republican Sen. John McCain, those giving Warren the most grief were conservatives. They were convinced he wouldn't be tough enough on Obama. (Obama wound up stumbling in his appeal to religious voters while answering Warren's question about when a baby gets human rights. Obama said it was "above his pay grade" to respond "with specificity.")

"For probably the last 25 years, evangelicalism became co-opted, and for most people it became a political term," Warren said. "And it got identified with a certain style of political leanings."

The attacks on Warren stretch to how he presents the Gospel — watered-down and soft, according to his theologically traditional critics.

Warren's phenomenal best-seller, "The Purpose Driven Life," which has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide, partly reflects the self-help ethos of baby boomers, although he insists it isn't an advice book and he defends its religious content.

Still, the tone of his writing is deliberate. Warren, 54, is among a generation of pastor-CEOs who use marketing studies, polling and census data to create congregations that will attract people who never go to church. One of Warren's most important mentors was the late Peter Drucker, considered the father of modern management.

Warren started Saddleback with one other family in 1980 in California, a state with one of the lowest percentages of churchgoers in the country. Saddleback now draws more than 22,000 worshippers each week.

As the church grew, so did the critiques. "The pioneers get the arrows," he says.

Warren survives the pounding partly because of his personal integrity. He donates 90 percent of his many millions in book royalties back to the church. He says he stopped taking a salary from Saddleback six years ago. No scandals have tainted his ministry.

He is also one of the savviest leaders among his peers.

His speaking invitations range from church groups to the Davos World Economic Forum and the United Nations. Saddleback's reach is now so broad, it's nearly its own denomination.

Warren provides sermons, study materials and guidance to hundreds of thousands of clergy worldwide through pastors.com and his other Web sites. Warren's "40 Days of Purpose" spiritual campaigns have been conducted in more than 20,000 churches, and he recently joined forces with Reader's Digest to launch a multimedia global juggernaut based on his "Purpose Driven" writing.

Now he is trying to revolutionize faith-based humanitarian work through his P.E.A.C.E. program. It unites local churches, businesses and governments to fight poverty and disease, promote peace, and combat what he calls spiritual emptiness. The pilot project for this effort began in 2005 in Rwanda, which has been dubbed the first "purpose-driven nation."

It is no surprise that he and Obama have become friendly. Each tries to operate outside a strict liberal-conservative divide, and has risked angering his supporters to do so.

"You can't have a reformation without somebody opposing it," Warren says. "If I wasn't making a difference, nobody would be paying attention."
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Old 12-30-2008, 10:22 PM   #70
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A registered independent who does not endorse candidates
This is at best only partly true; on the eve of the 2004 election, Warren sent an email to all his church members asserting that gay marriage, abortion, stem cell harvesting, cloning, and euthanasia were "non-negotiable" issues for Christian voters, and that they "must take a stand" by voting accordingly. I don't know whether he did anything similar this time around, but that email clearly constituted an endorsement of Bush.

It's great that he's urged so many to greater action on AIDS, global warming and torture. But it should be obvious that for those who support marriage equality, these aren't reasons to refrain from criticizing him (or Obama) for opposing it. One cannot "make up for" moral wrongs against one person or group by going out of one's way to do good deeds for another.
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:48 PM   #71
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I do not believe they are trying to make up for anything. It is their belief system and one does not equate with making up anything.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:03 PM   #72
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Oh, I'm sure they aren't--after all, they see nothing morally wrong with their stance on gay marriage, rather with the stance of those who support it. I was referring to the "What are these No On 8 people whining about now, Warren's actually a pretty progressive guy, isn't that good enough" type of argument.
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Old 12-31-2008, 10:09 PM   #73
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Oh, I'm sure they aren't--after all, they see nothing morally wrong with their stance on gay marriage, rather with the stance of those who support it. I was referring to the "What are these No On 8 people whining about now, Warren's actually a pretty progressive guy, isn't that good enough" type of argument.
I didn't realize that was the argument I was making, or that I was making any argument. I was simply pointing out that Warren seems to be the kind of pastor who has actually reached across the aisle on a variety of issues that have made him problematic amongst hardcore conservatives and evangelicals. He's a bit more well-rounded than many on this board would have us believe.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:15 AM   #74
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Yeah, that's right, they're all puppets of the illuminati. There is no hope, we might as well load up the old revolver in the back cupboard now, and just end it.

There is a lot wrong with the American political system, but Obama is not its cause. I've said it before, if he proves to be merely sensible and somewhat reasonable, in comparison to his precedessor, I will consider that a Very Good Thing.
It doesn't take an Ivy League graduate to accomplish that. Hell, even a monkey could do that.
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Old 01-01-2009, 02:14 AM   #75
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Funny you should mention monkeys.... because it's time for another Frank the Monkey thread.
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