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Old 12-22-2008, 02:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.

I believe that it would be very difficult for me to like the man if I were gay.

Most of the world does not equate gay marriage with civil rights or racism. It appears that Obama does not either.
I think you've stated the situation quite succinctly.

I really do believe that many gay-marriage opponents are NOT seething with conscious or unconscious hate towards gays. They just don't know any better. I've said this before and I'll say it again: most people equate prejudice/discrimination with hatred and it's simply not true, just as it cannot solely be equated with ignorance. Prejudice comes in many forms and at least one of them is well intentioned and "nice." Believe me I was surrounded by some of the nicest, gentlest racists growing up. These people didn't "hate" black people. They just knew that it was wrong for me to be dating anyone other than that one other black girl in my class. They were not bad people. They were just wrong.

It doesn't make it any more okay or any less hurtful but I do believe its important to recognize that prejudice towards homosexuals can come from places other than virulent hatred. It may be easier and make us feel better to demonize the enemy, but to win the war we have to KNOW the enemy. I'm not saying we shouldn't call people out on their prejudicial views, but we shouldn't assume we know where those views are coming from.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:47 PM   #47
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I think what bothers me the most is that Obama squandered a great opportunity to give the "Religious Left" an opportunity to be, for lack of a better term, "authentically Christian." Instead, Obama has merely reaffirmed the rather offensive notion that the Religious Right get to set the tone for what passes as "Christian" and what isn't. For a president-elect that likes to talk about "inclusivity," I don't particularly think that he thought this through entirely. I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.
I hope that his Creator sees it the same way when Warren comes up for judgment day.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:07 PM   #49
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I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.

There is only one invocation = Warren

and one benediction = Lowery


this would be a completely different discussion
if Lowery were giving the invocation and Warren the benediction.



oh, and by the way, Warren is left, for many.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:14 PM   #50
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oh, and by the way, Warren is left, for many.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
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Old 12-22-2008, 03:21 PM   #51
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If you are going to get personal about it.


I think his 40 day program for "A Purpose Driven Life" should have devoted one day to a 1200 calorie a day diet and exercise program for people his size.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:12 PM   #52
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This language has now been removed from Warren's website:

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Old 12-22-2008, 04:36 PM   #53
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I have chosen to attend several different denominations over my life time

A religion is a voluntary association.

I can choose to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc. by electing to participate in those belief systems and following their rituals and practices.

I can not choose to be black or gay, or female.

If I were attending Saddleback Church and I heard Warren equating gays to pedophiles I would be certain this person was misguided and was bearing false witness. I would no longer attend his services.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:37 PM   #54
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Well put, deep.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:55 PM   #55
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Deep
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:47 PM   #56
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The shabby church also took down some of the lies it tells to children
Quote:
What about dinosaurs?

Question: How do they fit in with the idea that God created the world rather than the world evolving on it’s own? Why doesn’t the Bible talk about dinosaurs?

Answer: The Bible tells in Genesis 1 that God made the world in seven days, and that he made all of the animals on the fifth day and the sixth day. All of the animals were created at the same time, so they all walked the earth at the same time. I know that the pictures we all grew up with in the movies were that dinosaurs roamed a lifeless, volcanic planet. Remember these are just pictures drawn by someone today! The Bible’s picture is that dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty.

What happened to the dinosaurs? The scientific record lets us know that they obviously became extinct through some kind of cataclysmic event on the earth. Many scientists theorize that this may have been an asteroid striking the earth, while many Christians wonder if this event could have been the worldwide flood in Noah’s day. No one can know for certain what this event was.

Although it cannot be stated with certainty, it appears that dinosaurs may have actually been mentioned in the Bible. The Bible uses names like “behemoth” and “tannin.” Behemoth means kingly, gigantic beasts. Tannin is a term that includes dragon-like animals and the great sea creatures such as whales, giant squid, and marine reptiles like the plesiosaurs that may have become extinct. The Bible’s best description of a dinosaur-like animal is in Job chapter 40. We don’t know for certain if these are actually dinosaurs or are some other large creatures that became extinct.

This should not sound so strange. After all, God tells us that he created all the land animals on the sixth day of creation, the same day that he created mankind. Man and dinosaurs lived at the same time. There was never a time when dinosaurs ruled the earth. From the very beginning of creation, God gave man dominion over all that was made, even over the dinosaurs.

“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.” Exodus 20:11

“All things were made through him, and without him nothing was made that was made.” John 1:3

“Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God.” Job 40:15-19 (NIV)
Quote:
Is evolution part of God’s plan?

Question: Why is it not OK for evolution to be part of God’s plan? I don’t understand what the problem is: couldn’t God have used the process of evolution as the way that he created the earth?

Answer: When I was a new believer in Christ, I had some very strong feelings about the issue of evolution. Much as you have expressed, I believed that evolution and the account of the Bible about creation could exist along side of each other very well. I just didn’t see what the big argument was all about. I had some friends who had been studying the Bible much longer than I had who saw it differently. But they didn’t push me or argue with me, they simply challenged me to take some time to look into the facts and study the issues carefully. I’ll always appreciate them for that, because this was an issue that I had to really think through. Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together. There are some real problems with the idea that God created through evolution.

I would encourage you to take some time to study this issue. I found that, although I’d understood the science side of the equation, I needed to take some more time to read what the Bible really had to say about this subject. Not having taken the time to really read the Bible, I was very ignorant about what it had to say. Let me give you one example. I discovered that the problem of sin, as addressed in the Bible, was much more serious than I had previously thought. When I realized that the world was clearly a perfect place as God created it, and that this perfection was ruined by the sinful choice of Adam and Eve, it really started me thinking. Did the Bible teach evolution or did it teach the creation of a first man and woman named Adam and Eve? If we evolved, which human being would have made the choice that brought sin into this world? If Adam and Eve were just allegorical pictures, why did the New Testament place some much importance upon them as responsible and real individuals? Since God clearly says that it is our sin that brought death into our world, how could there have been death for billions of years before the arrival of the first man who sinned on the earth? As I asked questions about this issue and studied what the Bible had to say, I found it to be one of the greatest times of learning in my life as a new believer. My prayer is that you will have this same experience!

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Gen. 1:1

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:3

If you want to study this further...
Here’s a web site that you might want to check out:
Home - Probe Ministries (One article that is especially thought provoking discusses “Darwin’s Black Box”).
And our favourite
Quote:
What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

The Bible very clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.

“Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.” (Lev. 18:22 TLB)

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV)

While all sin is destructive, Romans 6 warns us of the great dangers in sexual sin when it says, “Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body.” (1 Cor 6:18 NLT) This includes not only homosexuality, but all sexual immorality: adultery, sex without marriage, pornography. We must not act as if homosexuality is the only serious sexual sin, and we must not act as if homosexuality is not a serious sexual sin.

I’ve heard it asked, “Isn’t being homosexual something that a person is physically born with?” First of all, there are absolutely no facts to support this claim. From time to time studies have been reported in the news that seemed to indicate this, but every one of these studies has proven to be wrong. Secondly, even if some physical difference were discovered, it would be no excuse for sin. We know that some people can develop a stronger physical addiction to alcohol than others, but that’s obviously no excuse for living an alcoholic lifestyle.

Finally, a word about being judgmental. It’s not judgmental to say that what the Bible calls a sin is a sin, that’s just telling the truth. Not being willing to talk to someone caught up in sin, or not believing that they can be forgiven, or thinking that you are not just as much in need of Jesus as they are ... that’s being judgmental.

Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives.

In equal desire to follow Jesus, we also would not accept a couple into membership at Saddleback who were not willing to repent of the sexual sin of living together before marriage. That does not mean this couple cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
I think what bothers me the most is that Obama squandered a great opportunity to give the "Religious Left" an opportunity to be, for lack of a better term, "authentically Christian." Instead, Obama has merely reaffirmed the rather offensive notion that the Religious Right get to set the tone for what passes as "Christian" and what isn't. For a president-elect that likes to talk about "inclusivity," I don't particularly think that he thought this through entirely. I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.
True.

Quote:
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oh, and by the way, Warren is left, for many.
Also true.
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Old 12-25-2008, 10:39 PM   #58
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Heartwarming story about Warren:

Quote:
That Weird Hug from Rick Warren
by Jeff Lutes

ACCORDING TO THE FIRST three books of the New Testament, Judas identified Jesus to the soldiers by means of a kiss. An act of ultimate betrayal, that peck on the cheek led to the arrest of Jesus.

I know how Jesus felt. Well, sort of.

On June 15, 2008, mega-church pastor Rick Warren embraced me and my husband, and each of our three young children. Then, he apportioned his considerable power and influence to eliminate our California marriage. But the story really begins six months before that hug of pretense.

In December of the previous year, I wrote a letter to Warren outlining my plan to bring a group of gay and lesbian couples, and their children, to visit his Saddleback Church over Father’s Day weekend. I expressed our intent to attend worship on Sunday, and my hope that he and some families in his congregation would share a meal with us in an effort to reach beyond our differences and focus instead on the commonalities we share as parents and people of faith. In due course, I began a series of phone conversations with Warren’s chief of staff. Over the next several weeks, we agreed that eight of our families would eat lunch on June 16 with Warren, his wife Kay, and six of their staff members. After the family meal, eight people from our group would then convene for a 90 minute conversation with Warren, his wife, and the six other church leaders. Here’s where it gets interesting.

The week before our visit, Newsweek senior editor Lisa Miller published an article that contained a single sentence about Warren’s upcoming get-together with a bunch of gay dads. Suddenly, the tone and demeanor from those paid to protect Warren’s public image began to deteriorate.

First, we were told that things had changed and Warren and his wife "might" attend the meal and forum. A few days later, Warren posted a message on a religious blog saying that he never intended to meet with our families. Once we arrived in California, I called his chief of staff to discuss final details. Implausibly, I was told that Saddleback had now decided to only feed the eight people from our group who were going to be in the meeting, but not our children or spouses.

I pushed back by expressing my opinion that it was not very Christ-like to renege on our covenant after we had already traveled thousands of miles from Texas. "We’ll discuss your visit again and call you back," they said. An hour later they telephoned - this time with a much more serious tone. I felt like I was negotiating a nuclear arms deal rather than the breaking of bread and some fellowship among families. With seeming reluctance, they finally settled on feeding everyone but announced that now only four Saddleback staff members would attend and that Warren and his wife would not be among them.

They made a new offer. Warren had decided to preach from one of Saddleback’s satellite facilities, 45 minutes away from the main campus. He would sit down with my family for ten to fifteen minutes after the early service, if we agreed to attend. I accepted that offer and on Sunday morning we waited near our seats at the conclusion of church.

Eventually, I heard Warren call out my name. As I turned to greet him, he hugged me, my partner, and our three children . . . and then walked away. No conversation. Minimal eye contact. Just an awkward hug and he was gone.

The following day we tried to initiate heartfelt conversation with the four Saddleback staff members who managed to show up. From the opening moments it was clear that this was a meeting to save face without any real interest in hearing our stories or getting to know us.

That frustrating experience behind us, my husband and I were married in Malibu the next day as our kids and friends stood watch on the beach. Thanks to Warren and others who worked diligently to eliminate equality with the passage of Proposition 8, our marriage now hangs in limbo.

On January 20, Warren will lead the invocation at Obama’s inauguration. I’ll pray with him because our country and our new Commander in Chief need all the prayers we can muster. Afterwards, I’ll say another prayer - this one for Rick Warren. When I’m done, I’ll get up off my knees and keep marching until all people, all couples, and all families have the same civil rights. I won’t quit until the church and its leaders cease spreading fear and misunderstanding about lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people.

That’s my purpose driven life.
I never thought much of Warren, and this is pretty much what I'd expect from him. Wonderful Christian behaviour, really warms my heart.

Just look at this family that he didn't want to meet with, talk about unnatural, thank goodness those men's marriage is in question, and the kids look like they're being damaged too by living with a couple of gay dudes.

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Old 12-26-2008, 12:00 AM   #59
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Clearly those men shouldn't have been allowed to adopt those beautiful, happy, well-adjusted kids. They would have been so much better off back in their orphanage with no parents to love and protect them.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:37 AM   #60
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At quick glance I thought it was the guys I go to church with. They do not have a daughter though.
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