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Old 12-21-2008, 07:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Apparently, Obama realizes that a stance on one issue does not completely define a person. Or does it?
Or does it?

That is a fair question.

I know you are one that believes gay people deserve equal protection and I believe equal rights, too.

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Rep. Barney Frank, the first openly gay member of Congress, isn’t happy about the “high honor” Barack Obama has bestowed on the Rev. Rick Warren, who recently likened gay marriage to incest and pedophilia. This isn’t a speech at a forum, the congressman points out, but a role that is “traditionally given as a mark of great respect.”

“Mr. Warren compared same-sex couples to incest. I found that deeply offensive and unfair,” Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said in a broadcast interview.

“If he was inviting the Rev. Warren to participate in a forum and to make a speech, that would be a good thing,” Frank said. “But being singled out to give the prayer at the inauguration is a high honor. It has traditionally given as a mark of great respect. And, yes, I think it was wrong to single him out for this mark of respect.”


Pedophilia is a crime

and I believe incest is illegal, too.


By equating homosexuality to these
he is implying that gay people should suffer the same consequences that people who commit crimes and illegal acts.


If Warren compared mixed race couples to pedophilia and incest would he be given the same pass by as many people?
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:09 PM   #32
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Deep your being unfair, society hasn't progressed that far, when we are living purpose driven lives; pushing God into our science classes and making decisions about community standards, for out children, we can have an honest and frank discussion about the homosexual agenda to subvert our values and steal our words; until then lets unite for change and hope, your questioning is divisive and intolerant; not unlike the angry racist homosexuals who went out to attack innocent black churchgoers after prop 8.
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:30 PM   #33
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Define Pandering: In politics, portrayal of one's views to fit in line with a certain crowd of voters the candidate is attempting to impress.
I only bring up pandering as the thread title reads "Obama's pandering..."

On inauguration day, as Rick Warren will, I will celebrate, offer goodwill and pray for my new president.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:12 PM   #34
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Those expecting Obama to govern from far left, prepare to be disappointed.

I've always felt he was more centrist than people thought.

I don't know what Obama "really" believes regarding gay marriage. . .my hunch is he would support it, if he felt like it wasn't politically toxic to Purpose-Driven folk in this country. I would also wonder if this isn't true of Warren as well. He's got a lot of money riding on his legitimacy in the evangelical community and he's already more "liberal" than many of the others in that community. I know it's not right. But I do think that's the way it is.

But I do believe change is coming. . .gay marriage WILL happen.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Obama seems able to do what most people cannot. See the good in everyone.
Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:23 PM   #36
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I knew for the last year that Obama was not as principled as he let on. His compromise is ego-centrically driven because he feels he can be the GREAT MAN that unifies people, even if the compromises forced on people are unjust.

Hilary's nomination

First, he nominates that vicious thug Hilary Clinton as Secretary of State, when her views are aggressive and cowardly, threatening to obliterate Iran if it attacks Israel; if taken on first principles, this means that, if one's ally were attacked, one would be right to destroy the attacker of that ally; on this basis, Iran would be in its rights to obliterate Israel for attacking the Palestinian people since 1948 with ethnic cleansing, colonization and occupation. The right-wing mainstream media likes to blame everything on Hamas, but that group is only 21 years old folks. If fundamentalist Jews who felt it was okay to mistreat and murder Palestinians for decades believed in compromise or a fair peace, they could have reached it decades before Hamas, which is actually still a reasonable group, despite its ethical problems.

Let us suppose Hilary was lying and that she really cared for Muslim peoples and nations, then she proved herself more willing to pander to nationalist and American Jewish fundamentalist fears than Obama; she's still proven herself a bad choice.

I would much rather have had the brave Republican Senator of Nebraska, Chuck Hagel, who is retiring in January 2009; he bravely admitted supporting the war was a mistake, criticized Bush at every turn (more than even McCain), supported Obama as President against the wishes of his own party, and decried Israel's 2006 massacre of over 1,000 innocent Lebanese when most Dems were too busy kissing up to American Jewish fundamentalists instead of standing for human rights.

Obama could have picked someone with honor, but he went for the very political choice of Hilary to please nutcase nationalist supporters of her and prevent her criticism of him in Congress. As Jon Stewart pointed out, Hilary and Barack agreed on nearly every domestic issue; international affairs was the only real division between them. Hilary's more likely to mess it up, unless the idealistic side of her wins and she actually cares about justice for the Palestinians.

Let's not forget that the underlying story of this campaign, despite McCain's unforgivable selection of that racist bigot Sarah Palin as his running mate, was that Hilary was more willing to play dirty with racism than even McCain. It was she who brought up Bill Ayers and exploited Rev. Wright on Fox News, even though both men are American heroes in standing for social justice and not hypocritical American nationalism. Yes, I said it; Hilary Clinton's behavior was more shameful than that of McCain.

Inviting Rev. Rick Warren to the inauguration
Far more disgusting is Obama's decision to invite an anti-gay bigot like Rick Warren. It's not enough that Obama, in cowardly fashion, dismissed Rev. Jeremiah Wright, but he goes so far as invite a leader of the bigoted community that supports him.

Obama says it's about bringing people together. Since he's proud of Lincoln, I'll say a parallel would be if Lincoln said, as a compromise, that slavery could exist in a few states after the civil war as a compromise with the misguided South. There are certain things over which one does not compromise. I'm not gay, but I have seen gay people in hiding and have seen stories about them. They suffer enough in the shadows due to a society that shames them; they don't deserve to be treated this way.

It's obvious Obama truly believes that gay marriage is perfectly okay, but that he took on the political stance of only accepting straight marriage and civil unions for gays as a compromise with America's bigoted aspects. You don't bridge that gap by appeasing these sentiments. You eradicate them by proving they have nothing to fear by allowing these people equal rights and fighting for them.
Obama's just like John Kerry or that shameful President of the '90s Bill Clinton, after that President failed to get rid of the ban on gays in the military and got all conservative to win reelection; at least Bill tried, though.

Furthermore, Rick Warren is an egocentric windbag. Anyone who thinks he's generous and good-hearted is dumb enough to think Sarah Palin is genuine and down-to-earth; these people are obviously not good at reading people. They're both phony power-hungry freaks. I'm not saying to not engage Rick Warren, but this is an important symbolic moment. Gay people aren't trying to take away fundamentalist Christians' rights, but fundamentalist Christians are trying to destroy gays, as they have all non-Christians.

Enough! Stand up for what's right, Obama! Be cautious and economize your power, but don't sacrifice what's right for what's obviously wrong.

There could have been plenty of reverends or pastors that accept gays or don't vocally hate them from which he could choose. Instead Obama picked a guy politically designed to appeal to those who voted against him with the wrong tools. What's wrong with giving people health care or jobs? Why continue this culture war?

I was very happy to hear you go ahead with health care and environmental protection, but this sets my expectations back. Shame on you, Mr. Obama.


Thank you for being so tolerant
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:07 AM   #37
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What the hell is a "purpose-driven" life anyway? What's he talking about?
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:20 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?


I am sure he believes
Jewish gay and black gay behavior is just as repugnant as pedophilia.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?
Seeing the good in everyone is admirable- but I would guess that it is far more difficult for gay people to see the issue from that perspective, considering some of the things that Rick Warren has said.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:39 AM   #40
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What the hell is a "purpose-driven" life anyway? What's he talking about?

I was serious. I don't know what all this means.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:43 AM   #41
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I haven't read it but I think it's about asking yourself why you're here and what your purpose is in the world and discovering that and living accordingly.

This is what it says on the book web site

A groundbreaking manifesto on the meaning of life.

The most basic question everyone faces in life is Why am I here? What is my purpose? Self-help books suggest that people should look within, at their own desires and dreams, but Rick Warren says the starting place must be with God and his eternal purposes for each life. Real meaning and significance comes from understanding and fulfilling God’s purposes for putting us on earth.

The Purpose-Driven Life takes the groundbreaking message of the award-winning Purpose-Driven Church and goes deeper, applying it to the lifestyle of individual Christians. This book helps readers understand God’s incredible plan for their lives. Warren enables them to see the big picture of what life is all about and begin to live the life God created them to live.

The Purpose-Driven Life is a manifesto for Christian living in the 21st century...a lifestyle based on eternal purposes, not cultural values. Using biblical stories and letting the Bible speak for itself, Warren clearly explains God’s five purposes for each of us:

* We were planned for God’s pleasure, so your first purpose is to offer real worship.
* We were formed for God’s family, so your second purpose is to enjoy real fellowship.
* We were created to become like Christ, so your third purpose is to learn real discipleship.
* We were shaped for serving God, so your fourth purpose is to practice real ministry.
* We were made for a mission, so your fifth purpose is to live out real evangelism.

This long-anticipated book is the life-message of Rick Warren, founding pastor of Saddleback Church. Written in a captivating devotional style, the book is divided into 40 short chapters that can be read as a daily devotional, studied by small groups, and used by churches participating in the nationwide 40 Days of Purpose campaigns.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:05 AM   #42
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Thanks.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:17 PM   #43
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Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?
I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.

I believe that it would be very difficult for me to like the man if I were gay.

Most of the world does not equate gay marriage with civil rights or racism. It appears that Obama does not either.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:31 PM   #44
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Biden says he'll be different vice president - CNN.com

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King: There has been much controversy over the selection of Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at the inaugural.

He's been a guest on this show an awful lot, and he supported California's Proposition 8, a measure that outlaws gay marriage. He is also very opposed to abortion. I know the gay community in America appears to be up in arms. What do you make of this?

Biden: Well, I'd make of it [as] Barack Obama keeping his commitment.

Barack Obama said you've got to reach out. You've got to reach a hand of friendship across the aisle and across philosophies in this country.

We can't continue to be a red and blue country. We can't be divided like we have been. And he's made good on his promise.

And I would say to the gay and lesbian community, they have nothing to worry about. Barack Obama, every aspect of his life, every aspect of his public life, and every commitment he's made relating to equality for all people, will be things that he will stick with and that they should view this in the spirit in which he offered the opportunity to -- to Mr. Warren.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #45
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I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind

If only he would keep it in his own mind and out of the laws of the secular land.
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