Obama reverses abortion policy

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The other thing, too — and I'm just throwing this out there, is if a pregnant woman is murdered, the killer is charged with two deaths. Maybe this is different in different states, but why is it considered a life in that scenario and not in that of abortion? What makes it different? The mother's deisre for it to continue?




some view this as a tactic of the pro-life/anti-choice movement, to get a fetus official recognition as a person, to have legal language make no distinction between a fetus and a human being, the distinction is that there's only one who is "born" and one who is yet "unborn."

not that this answers the question, just food for thought.
 
some view this as a tactic of the pro-life/anti-choice movement, to get a fetus official recognition as a person, to have legal language make no distinction between a fetus and a human being, the distinction is that there's only one who is "born" and one who is yet "unborn."

not that this answers the question, just food for thought.

This is what I was sort of insinuating with this:

Anyway, it is more symbolic than anything in else in your scenario. If the person is charged with killing the mother and gets convicted, he probably gets life in prison, so charging him additionally with the baby's murder serves no practical purpose.
 
I'm very much opposed to fetal homicide laws (which 35 states currently have, 10 of those qualifying applicability by trimester; there's also a federal version, introduced in Congress by Lindsey Graham, applying the same principle to certain federal crimes). I don't necessarily object to additional damages and/or automatic maximum-punishment sentencing concerning the simultaneous crime against the mother (usually an assault; she doesn't need to have died for the law to apply), but from a pro-choice perspective, the implications of these laws are very problematic.
 
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I'm very much opposed to fetal homicide laws (which 35 states currently have, 10 of those qualifying applicability by trimester; there's also a federal version, introduced in Congress by Lindsey Graham, applying the same principle to certain federal crimes). I don't necessarily object to additional damages and/or automatic maximum-punishment sentencing concerning the simultaneous crime against the mother (usually an assault; she doesn't need to have died for the law to apply), but from a pro-choice perspective, the implications of these laws are very problematic.

This is one that needs to be clarified on the federal level.
 
The other thing, too — and I'm just throwing this out there, is if a pregnant woman is murdered, the killer is charged with two deaths. Maybe this is different in different states, but why is it considered a life in that scenario and not in that of abortion? What makes it different? The mother's deisre for it to continue?

that person is a double murderer

he murdered the woman and

he murdered her right to choose to allow the pregnacy to go full term or not to allow it to go full term.

We must always be on guard for people that want to murder other peoples' rights.
 
isn't the powerful thing here the fact that she chose to have the baby?
I was just thinking that this story (about the Rwandan woman) vaguely reminds me of that of a former friend and coworker from my retail days, I think the only woman I've ever known well who chose to give her baby up for adoption (I've had several female friends who decided to bear and raise an initially unwanted child, as well as several--single and married, with and without kids--who chose to have abortions). This all happened before I knew her, but anyway, she'd been married to a violently abusive man, and discovering that she was (unexpectedly) pregnant actually turned out to be what gave her the will, courage, self-determination, however you want to put it, to finally leave him--at which point she spent I think almost a year moving from one battered women's shelter to another (he was dangerous and repeatedly tried to track her down). Since she was quite literally starting her life over from scratch, she knew she was in no position to provide for a child, plus she'd never wanted kids anyway; but for her, having the baby and seeing to its placement in a home where it would be well-cared for became something like the central project in her process of regaining emotional independence, a concrete way of asserting that her husband no longer defined her destiny while she tried to figure out what that assertion was going to mean for the rest of her life. It was an amazing and inspiring story. Yet she was also pro-choice, and I know she'd object to anyone trying to use her experiences as an 'If she could do it, what's your excuse?' against any other woman. I don't know how her husband might've reacted to the pregnancy (he never found out, as I recall), but the way she told the story at least, it seemed like the fact that she chose the solution she did was indeed integral to its transformative role in her life.
 
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To me, it's not a potential human being, it is a human being. If it's not, then what is it?
Well, this is a whole other can of worms, but legally, philosophically, medically and theologically, the source of contention there is how we're to interpret 'being,' or as it's sometimes put in this context, 'person'. (I'm not aware of any substantial debate as to whether fetuses, or embryos for that matter, are both human and alive, as far as literal interpretations of 'human being' as a superficial physical description go.) Essentially: what are the qualities which specifically grant a human life form the aspect of a rights-bearing legal and moral subject; does human life in utero possess those qualities; and if 'yes,' at what point? And because the idea of the 'rights-bearing person' is just that--an idea, not an empirical reality--there's really no definitive answer, nor in this case even the next best thing, a consensus answer. Theologians might focus on notions of ensoulment; philosophers on phenomenological understandings of self-awareness; neurobiologists on the possibility of conscious perception as a milestone in fetal neuromaturation; some legal scholars regard the condition of existing only through and within some other (rights-bearing) person's body as inherently exclusive of 'personhood'...etc. etc.
 
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don't you mean AS important...?

Aren't you pro-life? If you seek to ban abortion, you're putting the foetus before the Mother. No equality about it. Whether it's in exceptional circumstances such as when a 12 year old girl's been raped by her Dad, or someone has gotten pregnant by mistake and can't cope with it.

Wow, this issue really does say more about peoples views on Women than anything else - doesn't it?
 
It is a potential human being. A potential Einstein, Newton, or maybe even an Obama.

Or maybe a Hitler, or maybe even a bin Laden.

Which is why this argument is beyond terrible.
 
I don't really expect an answer. It's complicated.

I have a question for those who think forcing women to have children is such a barn-burner of an idea. Most of you will make an exception for those women who have been raped. How do you legally differentiate those circumstances? How does it work? How does the law separate the sluts form the victims?

For example:

Andrea is seventeen, and having sex regularly with her boyfriend. They use condoms, but one time the condom breaks and she ends up pregnant. She was a willing participant in the sex, so is unqualified to have her pregnancy terminated. Her plans to attend college for a decade and become a physician are terminated instead.

Betty is seventeen and a virgin, until the night her creepy uncle holds her down and rapes her while she cries and begs him to stop. She becomes pregnant as a result of his actions.

How do those of you who support abortion access in Betty's case differentiate between the slut and the victim? How does it work? How do you make sure that Andrea bears the child of her shame and Betty doesn't? What must Betty prove to you so you allow her access to abortion?
 
I have a question for those who think forcing women to have children is such a barn-burner of an idea. Most of you will make an exception for those women who have been raped. How do you legally differentiate those circumstances? How does it work? How does the law separate the sluts form the victims?

For example:

Andrea is seventeen, and having sex regularly with her boyfriend. They use condoms, but one time the condom breaks and she ends up pregnant. She was a willing participant in the sex, so is unqualified to have her pregnancy terminated. Her plans to attend college for a decade and become a physician are terminated instead.

Betty is seventeen and a virgin, until the night her creepy uncle holds her down and rapes her while she cries and begs him to stop. She becomes pregnant as a result of his actions.

How do those of you who support abortion access in Betty's case differentiate between the slut and the victim? How does it work? How do you make sure that Andrea bears the child of her shame and Betty doesn't? What must Betty prove to you so you allow her access to abortion?

Ooh! Ooh! Can I answer?

It's not *really* about bringing the fetus to term, and it never was. Because they're both fetuses with the potential for life, right? And in Betty's case, how do the circumstances of that conception change the fact that it's still an innocent fetus?

So, I guess it's more about passing judgment on, and punishing women for perceived whorishness.

What do I win? :hyper:
 
What? No answer for my question?



my answer is that the little slut needs to be reminded of what she's done every single night at 3am when that baby wakes her up screaming. *then* she'll wish she'd listened in Sunday School and kept her damn panties on. she's learned quite a lesson, hasn't she?
 
You want to restrict access to abortion because it makes you sad. So, answer my question. How is it done?

you said yourself Im not that educated about the subject so I have no idea...
 
But there again, tubal ligations and vasectomies are not cheap or widely available if you are in the situation of being a young woman in an impoverished country or place where you probably don't have rights to even ask your spouse/parter for those options.

It's not just a matter of money, geography or spousal consent (although not that long ago spousal consent was required here).

I know a few women who in their early-mid 20s decided motherhood was not for them but were told they couldn't get a voluntary tubal ligation until they were 35. Until then, there's an array of hormone (mind/body) altering options that may fail. Great!

Women who don't want to be mothers are often treated like they just need more time to change their minds or need to "meet the right guy". Unbelievably condescending.

Societal fascination, revulsion and dysfunction around female sexuality is so very relentless.
 
my answer is that the little slut needs to be reminded of what she's done every single night at 3am when that baby wakes her up screaming. *then* she'll wish she'd listened in Sunday School and kept her damn panties on. she's learned quite a lesson, hasn't she?

And she may even repent and begin attending masses and donating to our church!

(Alright, that might be too cynical of me, I admit it.)
 
It's not just a matter of money, geography or spousal consent (although not that long ago spousal consent was required here).

Decades ago, my grandmother had 7 children very close together, and was suffering poor health, which was made worse by having multiple close pregnancies. Her doctor gave her a hysterectomy when she didn't really need one, under the guise of health reasons, to prevent her from going through future pregnancies. He did this because my grandfather would not approve of tubal ligation. Nice, huh?
 
(although not that long ago spousal consent was required here).

I don't see what's so bad about spousal consent, it's the father baby too...

But you were so proud of your participation in the March for "Life." Don't they have an answer for you?

They want to reverse "Roe Vs. Wade." Before that, abortion was still an option in most places, as long as you had a good reason...I just want something done that will stop all the unnessisary abortions that take place (Which is a good deal of all abortions).
 
And she may even repent and begin attending masses and donating to our church!

(Alright, that might be too cynical of me, I admit it.)



i just want her to learn about responsibility. kids these days are so spoiled and think they can get away with anything.
 
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