Obama reverses abortion policy

[BVS]

Ok I get it. I can't say a fucking word about my views without someone totally ripping it apart.

This is what I'm talking about... you're playing a victim.

This is what happens in a debate, you state your side, then someone will try and counter those points. Now if your argument is weak, then yes it will get "ripped apart". But if it's supported and logical than we can have a civil discussion about it...

 

[BVS]

well so far there are NONE offical statistics...

but I give you credit because your presenting your arguments in a dignified way... Thanks!

Well if there are no official stats then why did you try and pass that number off as being legit? Is that how many people you counted when you were there?

Even the conservative radio news weren't saying 500,000...

 

[martha]

Ok I get it. I can't say a fucking word about my views without someone totally ripping it apart.

Welcome to FYM. Make a more solid case. Perhaps it wouldn't be so easy to rip it apart.

Before Roe Vs. Wade, you could get an abortion if you could give reason to two physicians.

Why should a woman have to do this? And can you really cite the laws and states where this was the case? I'd be interested to know. Until you can give specifics on this point, prepare to be called out on it every time you use it.

Many people call me close-minded.

I bet they do. A young man earnestly telling grown women that he knows best for them as far as health decisions go.

I've tried to present all my points fairly calmly, but it gets hard when people use that kind of sarcasm.

You have presented your points calmly. But you expect me to allow you to tell me that I have to have children because it makes you sad if I don't?

And, go back to the post that started this thread. You haven't addressed the points there that were rebutted. You started by complaining how your money would be used to fund abortions overseas. When people proved you wrong, you ignored their facts and started in on US laws. I only brought up US laws after you did.

So, what about the responses to your initial post? Anything there?

 

[phillyfan26]

I was referring to the march for life.

I had to listen to my pastor speak about this bullshit, and he referenced the media in a scarily similar manner to the way that you did.

I'm very glad the media doesn't report on it. It's extremely redundant, there's not a chance in hell it's going to do anything, and less and less people care everyday because more and more young people are being educated and understand the issue (or what should be a lackthereof).

 

[phillyfan26]

Ok I get it. I can't say a fucking word about my views without someone totally ripping it apart.

I like to think that I'm being as straightforward with you as possible, avoiding sarcasm and such (that's my natural tendency, anyway).

But this is not a place to come in and have people congratulate you on the fact that you have views. This is a place to have your views debated in detail by people on both sides of the issue.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I like to think that I'm being as straightforward with you as possible, avoiding sarcasm and such (that's my natural tendency, anyway).

yeah. That is true

but, it's kinda hard for me because Im one person agaisnt like at least 5 who obviosly have a greater knowledge of things than me

 

[pgv]

yeah. That is true

but, it's kinda hard for me because Im one person agaisnt like at least 5 who obviosly have a greater knowledge of things than me

I think the Conservatives are just generally in a minority over here in FYM, so it probably does feel like you're fighting against a whole ton of people. Don't take it personally

 

[LJT]

yeah. That is true

but, it's kinda hard for me because Im one person agaisnt like at least 5 who obviosly have a greater knowledge of things than me

Maybe before you start a thread, try to have your knowledge up to scratch and evidence to back up what your declaring, otherwise you make it easy for people to destroy your arguments. In general it's best to know the topic you have a strong opinion on, otherwise it's a bit like saying 'I believe unicorns exist' with no evidence to prove that. The right to have an opinion is respected, but opinions themeselves do not have the automatic right to be respected. Which is what often annoys me in arguments with people, opinions are not sacrosanct.

Anyway stick around here at least, you'll find you will get better at debating.

 

[Kieran McConville]

The modern hard right has adopted the liberal language of 'diversity of views', 'choice', 'balance' and so forth to extremely illiberal ends. Tricky stuff, I'm all tied up in rhetorical knots of doublethink.

Our friend pac-mule is a fine example of this. The entire thread is worthless and a waste of time. Obama's decision almost certainly does not mean what he claims it means, so what is left to discuss?

 

[financeguy]

Maybe before you start a thread, try to have your knowledge up to scratch and evidence to back up what your declaring, otherwise you make it easy for people to destroy your arguments. In general it's best to know the topic you have a strong opinion on, otherwise it's a bit like saying 'I believe unicorns exist' with no evidence to prove that. The right to have an opinion is respected, but opinions themeselves do not have the automatic right to be respected. Which is what often annoys me in arguments with people, opinions are not sacrosanct.

Anyway stick around here at least, you'll find you will get better at debating.

It strikes me, as a general and not specific comment, that there are posters other than The Pac Mule that have already decided their opinion on the broader issue, and without citing much by way of evidence, before posting.

 

[BVS]

I think the Conservatives are just generally in a minority over here in FYM, so it probably does feel like you're fighting against a whole ton of people. Don't take it personally

I agree, don't take it personally and please stick around.

 

[financeguy]

Why should a woman have to do this? And can you really cite the laws and states where this was the case? I'd be interested to know. Until you can give specifics on this point, prepare to be called out on it every time you use it.

By the same standard, prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

 

[LJT]

It strikes me, as a general and not specific comment, that there are posters other than The Pac Mule that have already decided their opinion on the broader issue, and without citing much by way of evidence, before posting.

Bad arguments don't always need contravening evidence to disprove them when there is a certain amount of illogic to it.

 

[financeguy]

Bad arguments don't always need contravening evidence to disprove them when there is a certain amount of illogic to it.

But the anti-abortion position is logical:-

Untitled Document

 

[LJT]

I did not suggest there could not be a logical anti-abortion position...just the argument being made here wasn't the best.

I've did a couple of about turns in my relatively short life on the abortion debate but arrived at the current pro-choice position or supporting the availability of abortion, or whatever way you want to phrase, just from some general life experience.

 

[Liesje]

prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

This wasn't directed at me but regardless, I take offense. Honestly, I'm not even sure how to respond. Do you honestly believe people here think human lives are trash?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that with the number of abortions nature does we can safely say that God would be pro-choice.

 

[Angela Harlem]

By the same standard, prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

You must know a part of martha that no one else has ever seen if you truly believe she thinks human life is biological trash.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I think that with the number of abortions nature does we can safely say that God would be pro-choice.

Statistically? Fuck yeah! Then there's the billions of sperm a male produces in a lifetime, the 400,000 odd eggs a female is born with, and all this before we get to the on-average 1 in 3/4 pregnancies that naturally abort.

 

[martha]

By the same standard, prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

Again, I'll ask you to quote me where I say this.

 

[martha]

but, it's kinda hard for me because Im one person agaisnt like at least 5 who obviosly have a greater knowledge of things than me

Shouldn't this be a clue that you need to educate yourself about these things before you make decisions?

Or at least before you post about them?

 

[martha]

You must know a part of martha that no one else has ever seen if you truly believe she thinks human life is biological trash.

Oh, financeguy knows all about me.

Just ask him.

 

[anitram]

Statistically? Fuck yeah! Then there's the billions of sperm a male produces in a lifetime, the 400,000 odd eggs a female is born with, and all this before we get to the on-average 1 in 3/4 pregnancies that naturally abort.

One of my eggs just died while I was reading this thread.

 

[VintagePunk]

By the same standard, prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

Hyperbole used by the other side in an attempt to make us feel guilty about our choices.

In reply I'd have to state that yes, to some women, a fetus is "biological trash," in the sense that it's unwanted biological matter that she can choose whether or not to dispose of.

No matter how ugly you attempt to make it sound, I still maintain that the rights of the woman trump the rights of the fetus, and I'll fight for her/my right to be able to decide what to do with it.

One of my eggs just died while I was reading this thread.

Should we hold a service for it?

 

[Irvine511]

By the same standard, prepare to be called out each and every time you present human life as a piece of biological trash.

and all the anger that this post is going to engender is solely due to the fact that FYM is filled with a bunch of bullying, meanie liberals who want everyone to agree with them and won't let conservatives have differing opinions. it has nothing to do with being intentionally antagonistic, hysterical, and choosing to pick a fight instead of debating an issue.

what if it were an Israeli fetus? when born, it will be conscripted 18 years later, and then it will murder Palestinians for shits and giggles. so perhaps it should be pre-emptively aborted to prevent more dead Palestinians in 2027?

(you see? i can do it too.)

 

[Angela Harlem]

One of my eggs just died while I was reading this thread.

I'm so sorry. God moves in mysterious ways.

 

[nathan1977]

You know, there's an awful lot to be said here about the smugness of those who are dogging people who believe life starts at conception. There's a lot to be said about the automatic vitriol that even wondering whether the right to control one's own body includes the right to commit murder.

But I'm not interested in talking about that.

My wife and I miscarried late last year.

There are those who considered it seven-week old biological waste.

They were entitled to their opinion.

There were, however, those who felt that loss as deeply as anything they have ever experienced. Several of our friends also experienced miscarriages last year. We all experienced the same pain. It was a loss of life, of possibilities and opportunities unfulfilled. I would not wish that pain on anyone.

And I would be very careful about mocking those for whom life -- even in its early, formative stages -- is a sacred thing.

Because anyone who has been in the presence of death -- whether it is the death of a literal life, or merely the death of possibilities -- knows that it is not a moment to be taken lightly, nor casually considered.

 

[martha]

My wife and I miscarried late last year.

There are those who considered it seven-week old biological waste.

They were entitled to their opinion.

There were, however, those who felt that loss as deeply as anything they have ever experienced. Several of our friends also experienced miscarriages last year. We all experienced the same pain. It was a loss of life, of possibilities and opportunities unfulfilled. I would not wish that pain on anyone. And I would be very careful about mocking those for whom life -- even in its early, formative stages -- is a sacred thing.

Although you may believe otherwise, I am truly sorry for your loss.

I would caution you to be very, very careful in making your own assumptions about how people feel or what they've experienced.

 

[BVS]

You know, there's an awful lot to be said here about the smugness of those who are dogging people who believe life starts at conception. There's a lot to be said about the automatic vitriol that even wondering whether the right to control one's own body includes the right to commit murder.

There's a lot to be said about the smugness in your own post and the smugness of many on the pro-life side. Don't think for one second that it's limited to only one side, once you've done that you've lost.

 

[ShipOfFools]

just try and imagine how it feels in my place or any one else who is anti-abortion, when you go to pay your taxes...

On the flip side, how do you think it felt for people who are against the war in Iraq, who had to pay their taxes during Bush's presidency? If I had to choose between the two, I'd chose Obama and his new policy.