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Old 01-27-2009, 06:11 PM   #301
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The other thing, too — and I'm just throwing this out there, is if a pregnant woman is murdered, the killer is charged with two deaths. Maybe this is different in different states, but why is it considered a life in that scenario and not in that of abortion? What makes it different? The mother's deisre for it to continue?



some view this as a tactic of the pro-life/anti-choice movement, to get a fetus official recognition as a person, to have legal language make no distinction between a fetus and a human being, the distinction is that there's only one who is "born" and one who is yet "unborn."

not that this answers the question, just food for thought.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:16 PM   #302
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some view this as a tactic of the pro-life/anti-choice movement, to get a fetus official recognition as a person, to have legal language make no distinction between a fetus and a human being, the distinction is that there's only one who is "born" and one who is yet "unborn."

not that this answers the question, just food for thought.
This is what I was sort of insinuating with this:

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Anyway, it is more symbolic than anything in else in your scenario. If the person is charged with killing the mother and gets convicted, he probably gets life in prison, so charging him additionally with the baby's murder serves no practical purpose.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:36 PM   #303
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I'm very much opposed to fetal homicide laws (which 35 states currently have, 10 of those qualifying applicability by trimester; there's also a federal version, introduced in Congress by Lindsey Graham, applying the same principle to certain federal crimes). I don't necessarily object to additional damages and/or automatic maximum-punishment sentencing concerning the simultaneous crime against the mother (usually an assault; she doesn't need to have died for the law to apply), but from a pro-choice perspective, the implications of these laws are very problematic.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:54 PM   #304
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I'm very much opposed to fetal homicide laws (which 35 states currently have, 10 of those qualifying applicability by trimester; there's also a federal version, introduced in Congress by Lindsey Graham, applying the same principle to certain federal crimes). I don't necessarily object to additional damages and/or automatic maximum-punishment sentencing concerning the simultaneous crime against the mother (usually an assault; she doesn't need to have died for the law to apply), but from a pro-choice perspective, the implications of these laws are very problematic.
This is one that needs to be clarified on the federal level.
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:09 PM   #305
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The other thing, too — and I'm just throwing this out there, is if a pregnant woman is murdered, the killer is charged with two deaths. Maybe this is different in different states, but why is it considered a life in that scenario and not in that of abortion? What makes it different? The mother's deisre for it to continue?
that person is a double murderer

he murdered the woman and

he murdered her right to choose to allow the pregnacy to go full term or not to allow it to go full term.

We must always be on guard for people that want to murder other peoples' rights.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:23 PM   #306
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a fetus is not a human being.
It is a potential human being. A potential Einstein, Newton, or maybe even an Obama.

Pay more respect to the fetus. It's the shit.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:50 PM   #307
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It is a potential human being.
Yes, but when does potential life become more important that breathing life?
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:02 AM   #308
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isn't the powerful thing here the fact that she chose to have the baby?
I was just thinking that this story (about the Rwandan woman) vaguely reminds me of that of a former friend and coworker from my retail days, I think the only woman I've ever known well who chose to give her baby up for adoption (I've had several female friends who decided to bear and raise an initially unwanted child, as well as several--single and married, with and without kids--who chose to have abortions). This all happened before I knew her, but anyway, she'd been married to a violently abusive man, and discovering that she was (unexpectedly) pregnant actually turned out to be what gave her the will, courage, self-determination, however you want to put it, to finally leave him--at which point she spent I think almost a year moving from one battered women's shelter to another (he was dangerous and repeatedly tried to track her down). Since she was quite literally starting her life over from scratch, she knew she was in no position to provide for a child, plus she'd never wanted kids anyway; but for her, having the baby and seeing to its placement in a home where it would be well-cared for became something like the central project in her process of regaining emotional independence, a concrete way of asserting that her husband no longer defined her destiny while she tried to figure out what that assertion was going to mean for the rest of her life. It was an amazing and inspiring story. Yet she was also pro-choice, and I know she'd object to anyone trying to use her experiences as an 'If she could do it, what's your excuse?' against any other woman. I don't know how her husband might've reacted to the pregnancy (he never found out, as I recall), but the way she told the story at least, it seemed like the fact that she chose the solution she did was indeed integral to its transformative role in her life.
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:36 AM   #309
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It is a potential human being. A potential Einstein, Newton, or maybe even an Obama.

Pay more respect to the fetus. It's the shit.
To me, it's not a potential human being, it is a human being. If it's not, then what is it?
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:11 AM   #310
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Yes, but when does potential life become more important that breathing life?
don't you mean AS important...?
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:40 AM   #311
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To me, it's not a potential human being, it is a human being. If it's not, then what is it?
Well, this is a whole other can of worms, but legally, philosophically, medically and theologically, the source of contention there is how we're to interpret 'being,' or as it's sometimes put in this context, 'person'. (I'm not aware of any substantial debate as to whether fetuses, or embryos for that matter, are both human and alive, as far as literal interpretations of 'human being' as a superficial physical description go.) Essentially: what are the qualities which specifically grant a human life form the aspect of a rights-bearing legal and moral subject; does human life in utero possess those qualities; and if 'yes,' at what point? And because the idea of the 'rights-bearing person' is just that--an idea, not an empirical reality--there's really no definitive answer, nor in this case even the next best thing, a consensus answer. Theologians might focus on notions of ensoulment; philosophers on phenomenological understandings of self-awareness; neurobiologists on the possibility of conscious perception as a milestone in fetal neuromaturation; some legal scholars regard the condition of existing only through and within some other (rights-bearing) person's body as inherently exclusive of 'personhood'...etc. etc.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:24 AM   #312
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don't you mean AS important...?
Aren't you pro-life? If you seek to ban abortion, you're putting the foetus before the Mother. No equality about it. Whether it's in exceptional circumstances such as when a 12 year old girl's been raped by her Dad, or someone has gotten pregnant by mistake and can't cope with it.

Wow, this issue really does say more about peoples views on Women than anything else - doesn't it?
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:28 AM   #313
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don't you mean AS important...?
No, I meant just what I said...
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:08 AM   #314
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Wow, this issue really does say more about peoples views on Women than anything else - doesn't it?
Yep.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:24 AM   #315
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It is a potential human being. A potential Einstein, Newton, or maybe even an Obama.
Or maybe a Hitler, or maybe even a bin Laden.

Which is why this argument is beyond terrible.
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