Obama reverses abortion policy - Page 19 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-27-2009, 12:57 PM   #271
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^ If it's the moral status of life in utero that makes abortion 'murder' for you, then why would you make exceptions for rape or incest? They're not the fetus' doing; either it innately possesses the right to live save for threatening death or grave bodily harm to its mother, or it doesn't.
Because the reality is that, like war, whether murder is murder or not, sometimes all we have is the lesser of two evils. I'll never forget the story of a woman who was gang-raped in Rwanda and who was impregnated. For her, bringing the baby to term was the way of redeeming that horrific experience. I applaud that mentality, but the lines get very murky there, and I don't believe in telling someone who has been raped that she must now bring the child to term. It's not an Absolutist thing, because life is rarely absolute.

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speaking of particular moral visions, you almost seem to be adopting the classic Catholic stance here: that perpetual openness to the possibility of conception is morally incumbent on anyone sexually active
Again, you seem to be trying to create an absolute where none exists. I don't believe that sexual activity is only for procreation (I tend to agree with the Protestant perspective that sexuality is a gift for each other), but you can't ignore the reality that it's a both/and. Sexuality is both a gift for marriage AND a pathway to parenthood. You can't ignore the one without the other.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:59 PM   #272
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Are you joking?


As far as I know there's a very big difference. because in the first place, the woman is actually partially to blame for the pregnancy.
The other two are forced.
That was my point, Galeongirl. I was just curious if anyone else saw it too.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:00 PM   #273
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so a baby is punishment for having sex?
Babies do tend to result from sex, Irvine.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:08 PM   #274
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other than making yourself feel righteous, what's the point of using the term "muder" in this situation.
Because it's what it is, Irvine. This isn't about feeling self-righteous. It's about reminding us -- myself included, incidentally -- that what is happening is a tragedy. There are all kinds of reasons for it, and there is no simple way to deal with it (I'm in agreement with the links Coemgen posted -- I've liked Campolo since I first read him in college), but it doesn't lessen the reality or the tragedy.

I'm also in complete agreement with those who point out rightly that there are a variety of socio-economic factors at play here, which is why I've been frustrated for years by those who see abortion on its own as the problem to be stopped.

But we mustn't forget the cost at the heart of this.

Time to bounce -- on deadline, so looks like I'm heading back into the underground -- but thanks all as usual for a spirited discussion. Thought-provoking to be sure.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:21 PM   #275
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Babies do tend to result from sex, Irvine.


so the baby is a punishment? i might say that a child might be a result of sex (sometimes), or that pregnancy is a consequence, but a punishment? forcing someone to carry a child to term against her will is clearly punative, is it not?



also, not for me.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:23 PM   #276
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Because it's what it is, Irvine. This isn't about feeling self-righteous. It's about reminding us -- myself included, incidentally -- that what is happening is a tragedy.


i think we can view an unwanted pregnancy as a tragedy without resorting to calling a mother who aborts a murderer.

it seems that your calling it "what it is," nathan, is clearly faulty. if it's murder, then the only responsible thing to do is to punish the murderer. but you don't seem to want to do that, do you?
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:29 PM   #277
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Babies do tend to result from sex, Irvine.
the overwhelming majority of the time sex does not result in babies, or to say it better - conception - conception that will even lead to a healthy birth


and there are babies that are conceived and born without sex.



would you say eating leads to obesity ?
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:43 PM   #278
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the overwhelming majority of the time sex does not result in babies, or to say it better - conception - conception that will even lead to a healthy birth


to take this one step further, i don't think it's the actual condition of being pregnant that causes a woman to choose to abort. it's the circumstance around her pregnancy that informs her decision. i'll point back to my two friends -- neither of their pregnancies were planned, but they were very easily able to have a baby, and they wanted a baby, and so they are having (and have had) their babies.
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:16 PM   #279
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^ I think that is true but without going into too much detail I have been told by someone in a situation where having a child and raising it would not be a big deal (as far as finances, family support, spouse) but was told that abortion would be considered. Now I've never been pregnant so I can't really understand this myself, but for some women being pregnant is akin to torture (mostly mentally/emotionally). Even my own mother told me that she always wanted 4 kids, she could have easily raised 4 kids, but her pregnancies were so bad and the postpartem depression especially was so bad that it was the reason she stopped at three (I was absolutely shocked to learn this, my mom loves kids and every job she's ever had from retail to daycare to adoption agencies has revolved around children/babies, she is a very down-to-earth person and I cannot picture her being depressed, in all honestly it does have me quite concerned for my own probably pregnancies). That is two women I love, trust, and respect...two women who are responsible adults who HAVE raised multiple children...who have told me that they could not go through with another pregnancy. In both cases, abortion never was considered or necessary because of other means. But there again, tubal ligations and vasectomies are not cheap or widely available if you are in the situation of being a young woman in an impoverished country or place where you probably don't have rights to even ask your spouse/parter for those options.
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:35 PM   #280
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the best thing would be for sexual relations and conception

to be seen and accepted as two separate things


eating does not have to result in obesity or even weight gain

some people may choose to eat in a manner that will cause them to gain weight, some people may eat in a manner that causes them to lose weight

when someone becomes obese, do people say - you really should just abstain from eating, abstinence is best
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:37 PM   #281
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^ I think that is true but without going into too much detail I have been told by someone in a situation where having a child and raising it would not be a big deal (as far as finances, family support, spouse) but was told that abortion would be considered. Now I've never been pregnant so I can't really understand this myself, but for some women being pregnant is akin to torture (mostly mentally/emotionally). Even my own mother told me that she always wanted 4 kids, she could have easily raised 4 kids, but her pregnancies were so bad and the postpartem depression especially was so bad that it was the reason she stopped at three (I was absolutely shocked to learn this, my mom loves kids and every job she's ever had from retail to daycare to adoption agencies has revolved around children/babies, she is a very down-to-earth person and I cannot picture her being depressed, in all honestly it does have me quite concerned for my own probably pregnancies). That is two women I love, trust, and respect...two women who are responsible adults who HAVE raised multiple children...who have told me that they could not go through with another pregnancy. In both cases, abortion never was considered or necessary because of other means. But there again, tubal ligations and vasectomies are not cheap or widely available if you are in the situation of being a young woman in an impoverished country or place where you probably don't have rights to even ask your spouse/parter for those options.
That goes to illustrate that every person/situation is unique, and as such, no one should be allowed to make that decision for another.

I see that Nathan has been tossing the word "murder" around, as I've often heard pro life people do. The thing is, murder is a legal term defined in part by the phrase "an unlawful killing." The fact is, it many countries, abortion is not illegal, hence, it's simply not murder, as much as they'd like to appeal to emotion by calling it that.

coemgen, kudos to you for your post. You're obviously looking at practical matters in the situation. I think we can all agree here that the ideal is to reduce the need for abortion, and yours is one of the most thoughtful stances from the pro life side I've ever read.

In all of the "should abortion be allowed" scenarios I've read here, one thing that's not been addressed is contraceptive failure. There are times that pregnancies result, despite responsible efforts the couple have made to prevent it.
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:54 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
the best thing would be for sexual relations and conception

to be seen and accepted as two separate things


And how a healthy approach to the former leads to better (not absolute) control of the latter.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:29 PM   #283
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I see that Nathan has been tossing the word "murder" around, as I've often heard pro life people do. The thing is, murder is a legal term defined in part by the phrase "an unlawful killing."
Oh, since "murder" means an unlawful killing, I guess that makes things like captial punishment and abortion perfectly moral. The laws in our country aren't the greatest moral compass, I'm not saying that we have a lot of bad laws, but don't base your moral beliefs on what the laws are.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:38 PM   #284
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don't base your moral beliefs on what the laws are.
...and vice versa.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:39 PM   #285
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Oh, since "murder" means an unlawful killing, I guess that makes things like captial punishment and abortion perfectly moral. The laws in our country aren't the greatest moral compass, I'm not saying that we have a lot of bad laws, but don't base your moral beliefs on what the laws are.
I didn't say that I do. I simply said that by legal definition, it's not murder, and that use of that word is a common emotional appeal made by pro lifers.

How is any of that statement incorrect?
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