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Old 01-27-2009, 08:04 AM   #256
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What are people doing about the murders of thousands in Iraq? Whether or not it's prosecuted, or the intent involved (which is really what we are discussing here) does not change what it is. If it takes a shocking term to remind us that we aren't exactly dealing with wart removal, so be it.

You still didn't answer his question.
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Old 01-27-2009, 08:05 AM   #257
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As a result, I'm wondering if there is a difference between a pregnancy that is a result of an irresponsible decision, and a pregnancy that is a result of rape or incest?

Is there?
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Old 01-27-2009, 08:57 AM   #258
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As a result, I'm wondering if there is a difference between a pregnancy that is a result of an irresponsible decision, and a pregnancy that is a result of rape or incest? .
Are you joking?


As far as I know there's a very big difference. because in the first place, the woman is actually partially to blame for the pregnancy.
The other two are forced.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:34 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post

(Sorry if I'm not being 'intentionally antagonistic and hysterical' enough ).


thank you for not using the m-word in this discussion.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Alan Jamison View Post
Why should I have to pay for other people's irresponsibility (and immoral living, for that matter)? The key here is abstinence education, beginning in middle school.

you'll note that abstinence education doesn't work. it leads to higher rates of teen pregnancy and STDs.




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If these fathers were committed to their women before sexual relations, they wouldn't have to worry about abortion.

because married people never have abortions? or because all abortions happen because people are sexually irresponsible? many abortions happen for medical reasons, and many people have abortions for reasons far above and beyond the simplistic scenario you've laid out here.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:40 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
What are people doing about the murders of thousands in Iraq? Whether or not it's prosecuted, or the intent involved (which is really what we are discussing here) does not change what it is. If it takes a shocking term to remind us that we aren't exactly dealing with wart removal, so be it.


do you see the hypocrisy here? or at least the self-serving righteousness?

it makes you feel better to thump your chest and raise an accusatory finger and denounce someone as a murderer, but yet, you're not going to treat it as a crime? you're not going to prosecute those who (in your view) murder others? you're not going to have a punishment for those who are convicted of (in your view) murdering their unborn?

so what's the point then? other than making yourself feel righteous, what's the point of using the term "muder" in this situation.

i'm happy you support comprehensive sex education. i'm going to assume that you also support gay adoption as well.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:43 AM   #262
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^ If it's the moral status of life in utero that makes abortion 'murder' for you, then why would you make exceptions for rape or incest? They're not the fetus' doing; either it innately possesses the right to live save for threatening death or grave bodily harm to its mother, or it doesn't.


well stated. and it underscores the fact that people who want to make "exceptions" for things like rape, incest, etc., actually belie the suspicion that most of us have about the most ardent pro-life supporters -- it's really about controlling female sexuality than about the life of the fetus, and we saw that exemplified in an earlier post about being "committed" before "sexual relations" and how if just that would happen (if women would keep their damn legs shut until he puts a ring on it) then little babies wouldn't get murdered.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:46 AM   #263
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As far as I know there's a very big difference. because in the first place, the woman is actually partially to blame for the pregnancy.
The other two are forced.



so a baby is punishment for having sex?

sounds like a horror movie -- where the teenage girl has sex in the beginning of the movie, probably for the first time, and then the psychotic killer (Jason, Freddie, whoever) hacks her to pieces.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:00 AM   #264
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I did a lot of independent research on this subject during the recent election and came to the firm conclusion that the Right Wing Republican way of dealing with the issue is simply wrong — and this is coming from someone who considers himself pro-life. The ironic truth is that if you want to see actual lives saved, the Democrats are where it's at.

This is true for two reasons, and they're tied together:

1. Poverty. According to numbers at Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States (numbers used by the National Right to Life), women living below the poverty level are four times more likely to have abortions. 75 percent of women who have abortions say at least one reason of doing so is because they feel they won't be able to afford the child (a true poverty, indeed).

Which party focuses on the poor? Which party caters to the wealthy? There's even a staggering truth to these numbers. Yes, abortion has been on the decline for years, but guess what president saw the largest decline in abortions? Clinton. (see chart years 1993-2000) Why? Because the Democrats tend to lift people out of poverty.

2. The second reason why the Democrats are saving lives is a new one. There's a sea change in the party on the issue. A. You have Obama, who even in "The Audacity of Hope," which was written years ago, said we must take a multi-pronged approach to reducing abortions — even though he's pro-choice. On its own, this is huge for a presidential candidate (now president) to say. B. Democrats for Life (yes, they exist) are gaining in numbers and influence and have an ambitious goal for reducing abortions by 95 percent in 10 years: Democrats For Life of America
C. The Democratic platform itself has been rewritten in part by two progressive pastors, Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo, to include a focus on abortion reduction: God's Politics - Jim Wallis blog, faith blog, religion, christian, christianity, politics, values
Again, on it's own, this is huge.

You add these three things up, and you get a movement, in my estimation at least. I'm excited about it. Even since becoming president, Obama has called for common ground on abortion. Again, things are changing: God's Politics: A Blog by Jim Wallis & Friends
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:05 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
I did a lot of independent research on this subject during the recent election and came to the firm conclusion that the Right Wing Republican way of dealing with the issue is simply wrong — and this is coming from someone who considers himself pro-life. The ironic truth is that if you want to see actual lives saved, the Democrats are where it's at.

This is true for two reasons, and they're tied together:

1. Poverty. According to numbers at Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States (numbers used by the National Right to Life), women living below the poverty level are four times more likely to have abortions. 75 percent of women who have abortions say at least one reason of doing so is because they feel they won't be able to afford the child (a true poverty, indeed).

Which party focuses on the poor? Which party caters to the wealthy? There's even a staggering truth to these numbers. Yes, abortion has been on the decline for years, but guess what president saw the largest decline in abortions? Clinton. (see chart years 1993-2000) Why? Because the Democrats tend to lift people out of poverty.

2. The second reason why the Democrats are saving lives is a new one. There's a sea change in the party on the issue. A. You have Obama, who even in "The Audacity of Hope," which was written years ago, said we must take a multi-pronged approach to reducing abortions — even though he's pro-choice. On its own, this is huge for a presidential candidate (now president) to say. B. Democrats for Life (yes, they exist) are gaining in numbers and influence and have an ambitious goal for reducing abortions by 95 percent in 10 years: Democrats For Life of America
C. The Democratic platform itself has been rewritten in part by two progressive pastors, Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo, to include a focus on abortion reduction: God's Politics - Jim Wallis blog, faith blog, religion, christian, christianity, politics, values
Again, on it's own, this is huge.

You add these three things up, and you get a movement, in my estimation at least. I'm excited about it. Even since becoming president, Obama has called for common ground on abortion. Again, things are changing: God's Politics: A Blog by Jim Wallis & Friends


seems to me to be a post much, much more concerned with "life" than somehow finding the courage to call a slut a woman a murderer to their face.

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Old 01-27-2009, 11:27 AM   #266
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seems to me to be a post much, much more concerned with "life" than somehow finding the courage to call a slut a woman a murderer to their face.

I've gotten a lot of heat from my mom (who is coming around a little and seeing what I'm talking about now) and some Right Wing women at my church (not everyone there is Right Wing). However, after looking at all of this, I'm completely convinced, as a Christian, the Right Wing way is wrong. Christ wasn't about changing laws. He was about, and is about, changing people's conditions — certainly their hearts. I don't see changing Roe V. Wade doing this.

The funny thing, too, is that so many people who are giving me crap think I'm treating Obama as our nation's savior, when they felt the same way about Bush eight years ago. The irony is with abortion as their No. 1 issue, they fail to recognize that Bush had the Congress and the judges to put a dent in Roe V. Wade and he did NOTHING along these lines. Where's the uproar among pro-life conservative Christians? It's not there. Why? Because they've placed the party above the faith and it's disgusting to me. Many Right Wing Christians also are failing to recognize the historic steps being taken by Democrats in terms of abortion reduction. They've demonized the other side for so long that they can't see it as good — no matter how many lives will be saved.

Yes, this stuff upsets me. The good thing is things are changing.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:02 PM   #267
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The emphasis on reducing the need for abortion is key.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:15 PM   #268
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The abortion issue is one I am very divided on. I personally don't believe in abortion and I would never get one - I'm not a girl btw. On one hand I believe that people should have complete liberty to make their own decisions. Who am I to push MY beliefs on everyone else? this is America, a supposed free country, free to make decisions you want with your life.

But on the other hand there's a potential human being, who could possibly do such things as find a cure for cancer or invent something better than sliced bread, being murdered.

But I guess in the end there are far worse things happening in the world, such as all the wars and violence.

Like I said.. I'm really split on the whole thing.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:20 PM   #269
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so a baby is punishment for having sex?

sounds like a horror movie -- where the teenage girl has sex in the beginning of the movie, probably for the first time, and then the psychotic killer (Jason, Freddie, whoever) hacks her to pieces.
Looking at it from nature's perspective I don't know if sex was meant to be used as a reproduction schematic. Delete condoms and other contraceptives from this world, and having joyous sex will become a part of history.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:28 PM   #270
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You add these three things up, and you get a movement, in my estimation at least. I'm excited about it.
We also have a sexy anthem to go along with the sea change.
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