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Old 01-26-2009, 03:29 PM   #181
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Using the word "murder" isn't smug. It's actually a sober reality.
You're speaking of murder as an action with a simple definition and end result, even though know very well that people are getting more from that word then that. The way people are reading it, it speaks of the intent, will, and feeling of women who have abortions. You know very well that when you say "...even wondering whether the right to control one's own body includes the right to commit murder", you are painting a picture of all women who choose to have abortions as callus, feeling-less people who have abortions for their own personal amusement. It seems like a lot of anti-abortion people paint a picture of a world where women who get abortions are either sixteen year old not-the-sharpest-tool-in-the-shed types who have had unprotected sex with their high school boyfriend and then immediately upon discovering the pregnancy ask their parents to drive them to the nearest clinic, or high-powered career types who just can't be bothered by an unexpected pregnancy. The point here is that the world is grey. You, nor I, have any way of knowing the circumstances that surround each abortion or potential abortion. But I would wager money that there are very few women who giggle on the way to the clinic and then go about their merry way afterwards. I would wager money that very few women get any enjoyment out of abortion, and that very few do so without being very emotional about it before and/or after, and that very few women don't still think about it years and years later. They're not all murderous monsters. So it's not that people are disputing the sterile, textbook definition of what abortion it is, it's that people are disputing the connotations about the people who have abortions that you make you when you use the word murder.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:29 PM   #182
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(this might sound familiar.)
I wasn't pretending to be innocent in that post, I knew what I was doing...
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:39 PM   #183
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I'd find it much easier to join in this discussion if BVS and Nathan weren't having a sniping contest in the middle of it.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:40 PM   #184
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Can the legal system handle having a very short amount of time to prove rape in time to allow for a first trimester abortion? I seriously doubt it.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:46 PM   #185
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As a woman who is pro-choice, I feel no guilt whatsoever and no immorality over my position. But I'm glad that we now have people here telling us how we feel and why we feel that way. It's always good to know.

And nathan, I am sorry for your loss. I think you probably have a lot more empathy here among the pro-choice women than you may think - after all, you have no idea how many of us may have gone through something like that. As for your doctor, to be honest, I wouldn't really project her position on anyone else; I have known plenty of doctors in my life who were lovely people but also extremely functional and detached. Some of them because it was their personality, others because they felt it helped them do their job better. We may agree or disagree on that, but his or her cold response is not fairly ascribed to anyone else, IMO.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:49 PM   #186
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Can the legal system handle having a very short amount of time to prove rape in time to allow for a first trimester abortion? I seriously doubt it.
These are practical questions, nobody wants to talk about them.

Just like nobody wants to talk about sentences for doctors and husbands for aiding and abetting their patients and wives in getting illegal abortions. Or what about the women themselves?
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:52 PM   #187
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The discomfort of calling the murder of innocent people -- whether they're Iraqis or babies -- does not change what it is.
Yep. Many people on both sides of this issue would far rather be in denial than be discomforted.

I am anti-abortion, but what will limiting family planning information and making abortion illegal realistically accomplish? Forcibly enslaving women to unwanted children just perpetuates high levels of poverty and violence.

Reducing unwanted pregnancies and widely providing birth control options without judgement or shame will save far more lives than force and lead to much higher quality of life overall from a socio-economic standpoint.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:54 PM   #188
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heres all the statistics:

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?
While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.

if you want statistics: out of the 40 million abortions performed annually worldwide, 20 million (mostly "illegal" abortions) are performed in unsanitary conditions without adequate medical care due to lack of resources and information etc. resulting in 70 000 deaths each year (this doesn't include serious nasty but non-fatal complications)

abortions will happen whether people agree or not, and i think so many unnecessary deaths is unacceptable in this day and age... this vital information needs to be out there, to get it done safely and prevent such awful risks to a woman's health and life

good for Obama i say!
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:55 PM   #189
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Reducing unwanted pregnancies and widely providing birth control options without judgement or shame will save far more lives than force and lead to much higher quality of life overall from a socio-economic standpoint.
And this takes us back to the first post in the thread and why so many of us were so happy to see the policy overturned.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:01 PM   #190
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That may well be, and you've brought up the realities of a complicated situation that too many face (and the reality is that there are waiting lists as long as your arm of people who are willing to take those unwanted babies in). I'm not sure that two wrongs equal a right.


you realize, of course, that i'm going to do the right thing and not bring up adoption laws in Florida and Arkansas and the fact that a loving, committed, married lesbian couple i know and love can't adopt from Vietnam (my friend's mother is Vietnamese).

so i'll let that go, because i know it would be totally and wildly hypocritical of you to call abortion murder, and yet think that the thousands of gay couples who want nothing more than to adopt are somehow unfit to raise a child.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:02 PM   #191
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I'm all in for birth control. Ofcourse preventing the whole issue is better than treating.
I'm glad I live in a country where I have the right to choose for taking birth control pills or not.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:03 PM   #192
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you realize, of course, that i'm going to do the right thing and not bring up adoption laws in Florida and Arkansas and the fact that a loving, committed, married lesbian couple i know and love can't adopt from Vietnam (my friend's mother is Vietnamese).

so i'll let that go, because i know it would be totally and wildly hypocritical of you to call abortion murder, and yet think that the thousands of gay couples who want nothing more than to adopt are somehow unfit to raise a child.
But it's complicated, remember?
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:04 PM   #193
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They're not all murderous monsters.

but we need them to be, all of them, otherwise our "brave" tell-it-like-it-is pronouncements get exposed by reality as empty, righteous chest thumping.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:08 PM   #194
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These are practical questions, nobody wants to talk about them.


what's also funny is that there is a very mainstream, near-consensus position on abortion.

no one wants a total ban on abortions. not even North Dakota would go that far.

the vast majority of Americans believe that abortion should be totally legal in the first trimester, and then to a limited degree afterwards. which makes sense, since the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, and those that happen afterwards are nearly always for medical reasons.

the practicality of making abortion in the first trimester illegal would be impossible to do. so it seems to me that those who are passionately concerned with the well-being of a fetus above all else would do much more good if they were to work to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with -- and, hey, we can start with comprehensive sex education, full funding of birth control, and universal health care -- rather than couching the debate as one of stark choices between life and death.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:10 PM   #195
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what's also funny is that there is a very mainstream, near-consensus position on abortion.

no one wants a total ban on abortions. not even North Dakota would go that far.

the vast majority of Americans believe that abortion should be totally legal in the first trimester, and then to a limited degree afterwards. which makes sense, since the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, and those that happen afterwards are nearly always for medical reasons.

the practicality of making abortion in the first trimester illegal would be impossible to do. so it seems to me that those who are passionately concerned with the well-being of a fetus above all else would do much more good if they were to work to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with -- and, hey, we can start with comprehensive sex education, full funding of birth control, and universal health care -- rather than couching the debate as one of stark choices between life and death.
And there in lies the reason why the pro-life movement in America makes no sense (note "movement," not every individual). The movement in America wants no abortions, but, at the same time, wants abstinence-only sex education, which is flat out stupid.
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