Obama reverses abortion policy - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-26-2009, 11:39 AM   #151
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whether the right to control one's own body includes the right to commit murder.


with this as your base assumption, nathan, the dialog you say you want is impossible.

perhaps, on the flip side, we shouldn't be so smug when we call women who've had abortions murderers.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:01 PM   #152
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There's a lot to be said about the smugness in your own post and the smugness of many on the pro-life side.
Tell me Kettle, which shade of black are you wearing today?
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:02 PM   #153
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I would caution you to be very, very careful in making your own assumptions about how people feel or what they've experienced.
There was no assumption necessary, Martha. Some were very straightforward about it -- including, as it turns out, my wife's OB-GYN.

And thank you for your thoughts.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:04 PM   #154
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with this as your base assumption, nathan, the dialog you say you want is impossible.
If I didn't want dialog, Irvine, I wouldn't spend my ever-decreasing time in FYM. But rhetoric stirs up rhetoric, and stridency breeds stridency.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:13 PM   #155
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Tell me Kettle, which shade of black are you wearing today?
Um, ok... go ahead and ignore your own hypocricy.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:38 PM   #156
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I've always thought that it's better to have an abortion than to have the baby and possibly not be able to take care of it. If you don't have an abortion, and can't feed your baby, it'll die anyway, so isn't it better to have an abortion than slowly starve and neglect your child? A lot of new mothers aren't ready to have children.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:49 PM   #157
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If I didn't want dialog, Irvine, I wouldn't spend my ever-decreasing time in FYM. But rhetoric stirs up rhetoric, and stridency breeds stridency.


do you think it's helpful to call a woman a murderer? when, likely, there are people reading and participating in this thread who are, in your view, murderers?

so i guess rhetoric and stridency are okay when you do it?
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:50 PM   #158
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You know, there's an awful lot to be said here about the smugness of those who are dogging people who believe life starts at conception.
I believe life starts at conception and I also believe in choice. Whether related to a woman's right to control her health and body or a nation's right to defend itself against aggression (even preemptively), everyone wants to minimize death (of innocents).

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My wife and I miscarried late last year.
I'm very sorry for your family. Every loss needs to be felt and grieved.

While people may have minimized the loss, the intention was probably more an inept way to help minimize the pain. Most people really aren't equipped to help others deal with grief.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:54 PM   #159
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Um, ok... go ahead and ignore your own hypocricy.
Hypocricy? Pardon? I've never commented on your smugness.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #160
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do you think it's helpful to call a woman a murderer? when, likely, there are people reading and participating in this thread who are, in your view, murderers?
The discomfort of calling the murder of innocent people -- whether they're Iraqis or babies -- does not change what it is.

And ShipOfFools' post above should give us all pause. Because if we're even remotely close to entertaining the notion of killing people because it's easier than taking care of them, that opens a serious Pandora's box.

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so i guess rhetoric and stridency are okay when you do it?
Have I complained about your stridency? I think that's a question better reserved for others in this forum who enjoy being smug and strident all the time, but who seem to have trouble when someone else engages them in it.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:04 PM   #161
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Hypocricy? Pardon? I've never commented on your smugness.
No you just commented on the perceived smugness of a group as a whole while being extremely smug yourself...
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:05 PM   #162
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You know, there's an awful lot to be said here about the smugness of those who are dogging people who believe life starts at conception. There's a lot to be said about the automatic vitriol that even wondering whether the right to control one's own body includes the right to commit murder.

But I'm not interested in talking about that.

My wife and I miscarried late last year.

There are those who considered it seven-week old biological waste.

They were entitled to their opinion.

There were, however, those who felt that loss as deeply as anything they have ever experienced. Several of our friends also experienced miscarriages last year. We all experienced the same pain. It was a loss of life, of possibilities and opportunities unfulfilled. I would not wish that pain on anyone.

And I would be very careful about mocking those for whom life -- even in its early, formative stages -- is a sacred thing.
I am not sure if it is smugness so much as a certain guilt. I think liberals get uncomfortable when the facts of abortion are pointed out to them, because, deep down, they know their position is simply morally wrong. I think this accounts for some of the over-reactions on here.

But overall, you're right, of course. It's the other side, not us, who should be thinking about their consciences.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:06 PM   #163
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I am not sure if it is smugness so much as a certain guilt. I think liberals get uncomfortable when the facts of abortion are pointed out to them, because, deep down, they know their position is simply morally wrong. I think this accounts for some of the over-reactions on here.

But overall, you're right, of course. It's the other side, not us, who should be thinking about their consciences.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:07 PM   #164
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No you just commented on the perceived smugness of a group as a whole while being extremely smug yourself...
Using the word "murder" isn't smug. It's actually a sober reality.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:08 PM   #165
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I'm very sorry to hear about your miscarriage Nathan, but I do disagree with your point of view.
To me, there's a HUGE difference between abortion and murder.
Namely, because you and your wife made the decision to try and conceive a baby. Many women who go for abortion haven't. They've been raped or it was an accident(Teen stupidity, yes, but should the kid be blamed for their parents stupidity?).

Those women, yes, I do feel they should get an abortion. Because I don't think a baby deserves to be born like that. How well do you think a 16 year old is going to raise a baby? They don't. The parents usually take care of it. That's not a healthy family situation.
While I'm specifically not saying that kids can be raised into great adults in this situation, I'm just trying to say that I don't see why you would deny someone an abortion in this case.
Ofcourse it can be seen as another life wasted down the drain, but how about having a life growing up while your mother could've been your sister, without a father because he chickened out, practically being raised by grandma and grandpa for the first 10 years while mom finished her studies. Or worse, mom didn't go to college because she had to take care of her baby. What if the grandparents weren't there anymore.

It's all a deficit situation. I'd say the kid is better off waiting for the right chance to get born.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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