Obama releases the "Torture Memos"

[BVS]

Neo-'conservatism' sees enemies everywhere, some might be real but most are imagined.

It's so sad but true...

It's what it's built upon...

 

[zooropop40]

It's so sad but true...

It's what it's built upon...

yes. I mean even it seems like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh's politics are based on extreme paranoia, complete fear of anything with "government", pessimism, racism, and anger.

They would rather fight against the idea of government than actually trying to find ways to make government more efficient and better. Government should stay out of our personal lives, but that doesnt mean that government wants to enslave us like Glenn Beck's paranoia seems to fear.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

LONDON (AP) -- A former U.S. general said graphic images of rape and torture are among the photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse that President Obama's administration does not want released.

Retired Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, who oversaw the U.S. investigation into the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, told Britain's Daily Telegraph in an article published Wednesday that he agreed with Obama's decision not to release the pictures.

"I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them," Taguba was quoted by the Daily Telegraph. "The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it."

Two Obama administration officials didn't immediately respond to e-mail requests for comment Wednesday night.

The prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib exploded after photos taken by soldiers appeared in 2004.

According to the Telegraph, the new photos depicted much more serious abuses than previously documented.

One photo reportedly showed an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner and another was said to show a male translator raping a male detainee, the Telegraph reported.

 

[Irvine511]

One photo reportedly showed an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner and another was said to show a male translator raping a male detainee, the Telegraph reported.

i'm sure they raped with only the best of intentions and only the security of the western world in mind.

 

[HyperU2]

Probably the same pics that have been around for years.

Photos of US soldiers' alleged rape, sexual abuse in Iraq

 

[deep]

They need a better camera,

 

[HyperU2]

Nah, people might more easily notice they're fake pics then.

 

[Vincent Vega]

honestly, i preferred Cheney's speech in the original German.

I was afraid he actually had talked German. You are referring to this: The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan ?

There are treatment centers for victims of torture in the US. Maybe those who have no clue but honestly think they can tell what constitutes torture and what not should think about visiting one and talking to the people who are dealing with the results of this dangerous naivete.

 

[Irvine511]

I was afraid he actually had talked German. You are referring to this: The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan ?

There are treatment centers for victims of torture in the US. Maybe those who have no clue but honestly think they can tell what constitutes torture and what not should think about visiting one and talking to the people who are dealing with the results of this dangerous naivete.

actually, i was referencing a Molly Ivins' comment from back in 1992 after Pat Buchanan's shocking speech at the 1992 Republican Convention. she said that she preferred the speech in the original German, making the ironic point that it was Nazi-esque. dramatic, perhaps, but not totally inaccurate.

however, it is important to note that techniques used by Bush/Cheney were also used by the Nazis.

 

[Vincent Vega]

actually, i was referencing a Molly Ivins' comment from back in 1992 after Pat Buchanan's shocking speech at the 1992 Republican Convention. she said that she preferred the speech in the original German, making the ironic point that it was Nazi-esque. dramatic, perhaps, but not totally inaccurate.

however, it is important to note that techniques used by Bush/Cheney were also used by the Nazis.

Ok, thanks.

Torture is universal. Across all cultures you'll find a similar pattern. How it starts, how it progresses and what techniques will sooner or later be employed is awkwardly similar across the globe.

 

[INDY500]

actually, i was referencing a Molly Ivins' comment from back in 1992 after Pat Buchanan's shocking speech at the 1992 Republican Convention. she said that she preferred the speech in the original German, making the ironic point that it was Nazi-esque. dramatic, perhaps, but not totally inaccurate.

however, it is important to note that techniques used by Bush/Cheney were also used by the Nazis.

Sure, and today Obama/Biden have begun the Nazi-like technique of building "the peoples car."

Or in the original German, Volks-Wagen.

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

 

[DrTeeth]

Volkswagens are pretty good cars

 

[Irvine511]

Sure, and today Obama/Biden have begun the Nazi-like technique of building "the peoples car."

Or in the original German, Volks-Wagen.

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Memphis drives a VW. it's a great car.

kinda sucks that now GM is yet another failure of the free market, and that if we want to build things in this country we better get started on windmills and solar panels, but i guess that's how it goes.

 

[anitram]

Memphis drives a VW. it's a great car.

Aren't all of ours built in Mexico these days anyway?

VWs are hugely overpriced IMO...I had a Golf back in high school.

 

[DrTeeth]

Aren't all of ours built in Mexico these days anyway?

VWs are hugely overpriced IMO...I had a Golf back in high school.

True, you'd be better off buying a Seat which is basically the same car.

 

[deep]

Memphis drives a VW. it's a great car

Touareg ?

kinda sucks that now GM is yet another failure of the free market, and that if we want to build things in this country we better get started on windmills and solar panels, but i guess that's how it goes.

there are reasons why this G M failed

high up on the list are the legacy costs.

I heard that there were 10 past workers recieveing pensions and health benfits for every worker today.

 

[deep]

GITMO documents to be released?

Judge: Gitmo legal documents must be public

By NEDRA PICKLER – 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal judge ordered the United States on Monday to publicly reveal unclassified versions of its allegations and evidence justifying the continued imprisonment of more than 100 detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay.

The Justice Department had been filing unclassified versions of its legal documents under seal, so that they could only be seen by judges, attorneys and government officials.

Department officials described the practice as necessary to protect national security after they discovered that some unclassified records initially filed publicly mistakenly contained some classified information.

Attorneys for the detainees said the secrecy made it harder for them to prepare for upcoming hearings. The Associated Press, the New York Times and USA Today had joined the fight, arguing that the government was keeping valuable information from the public that has a right to monitor the legal process.

U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan sided with the detainees' attorneys and the media, saying the public has a right to access the records.

The judge ordered the Justice Department to publicly file its unclassified records or show the court what specific information it wants to keep protected, with a colored highlighter, by July 29.

"The issue of what to do with the detainees at Guantanamo Bay remains a source of great public interest and debate," Hogan wrote.

"Providing the public with access to the charges levied against these detainees, as detailed in the factual returns, ensures greater oversight of the detentions and these proceedings," he said. "As long as public access does not come at the expense of the litigation interests of petitioners or national security, the court believes the public has a common law right to access the returns."

The Justice Department had said the documents were only sealed temporarily so they could have more time to review them carefully for classified information.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Sure, and today Obama/Biden have begun the Nazi-like technique of building "the peoples car."

Or in the original German, Volks-Wagen.

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Volkswagen.

I'm wondering for a while now, with the change in government have the detainees in Guantanamo at least been put in humane conditions that hold up to civilised standards? I can understand that you just cannot close the whole thing down tomorrow, but don't see why the conditions couldn't be changed instantly.

 

[dazzledbylight]

there are reasons why this G M failed

high up on the list are the legacy costs.

I heard that there were 10 past workers recieveing pensions and health benfits for every worker today.

the problem with a term like "legacy costs" seems to me like another
"flip-over phrase" (my term) where the GOP/neo-cons(us) turns the despcription of what is really true about a helpful action the gov't
has/is/will take for people into a action that will harm (most or all ) people:
like:
"The Death Tax" which was used to murky the waters about the
what people would or would not get re: MORE estate taxes esp for farmers/and maybe other people involved in certain land issues. Wherein the truth is over 95% would NOT be affected by the new laws.


So "legacy costs" Frames the situation as all the costs people will still be incurring VERSUS the facts that:

that these former workers EARNED their rights through union neogotiations to have decent pensions etc to support them after all they gave to the company over usually decades, and they retired.


I mean, if it wasn't for Unions in general (yes there has been corruption & coercetions here & there in some unions at times) many of us would still be working a 6 - 7 day/week of ?9 - 12+ /hrs a day for near or at Minimum (Or Less) wages, with NO SAFTEY regs, NO HEALTH CARE Insurance, or Harresment protection etc.
And your younger kids/tweens/early teens (or peers) most likely would be working INSTEAD of being in school getting a good education.

THIS is what union people have fought, been injured and murdered for for decdes so that we wouldn't be working under harmful conditions usually, or in dangerous jobs there'd be as much protection as possible to minimize injury & possible death.

It's only again during Reagan's rise ( and con't thru the Bush's) of the culture of "i got mine (the hell with you) / if you don't make alot of money you = an unworthy person, uber-selfish / uber-greedy, and cruel Social Darwinism that was prevalent before FDR (and you neo-cons would be SURPRISED what Teddy Roosevelt actually said about a workers right to a decent wage ).

VERSUS the ideas that we of the USA are a community, and that being part of a a community, a civilized way of being is that we take care of those in need whether related to poverty/ or (esp) major illness/disability, or those berieved without support/ old age, and children all around.
And that together as community we'd pool some of our resources for the common good to do things that us a separate individuals, small families, or only(realtively) small communites could not do as well or AT ALL to create good living standards over all:
safe water & food supplies; good roads, bridges,tunnels; public transportation; electrical grid etc .

hooray for the good The Roosevelts & The Kennedys (whatever else their faults) for believing in this general idea of community where those who have a lot are willing to share, and believe(d) in a basic decent standard of living for all people of the USA. And certainly some of them also extended this to people around the world.

 

[deep]

I don't disagre with much of what you wrote

the union model worked well for many years, If an auto-worker retired in the 60s or 70s they would have probably gotten by pretty well.

In today's world, one worker vs. 10 retirees is not sustainable. I believe the bankruptcy is going to wreck havoc on today's retirees.


Civil servants still enjoy pretty good pensions and benefits, I expect them to implode next, in the next 5-10 years.

It is very unpleasant, that peoples lives are turned upside down.

 

[INDY500]

Volkswagen.

I'm wondering for a while now, with the change in government have the detainees in Guantanamo at least been put in humane conditions that hold up to civilised standards? I can understand that you just cannot close the whole thing down tomorrow, but don't see why the conditions couldn't be changed instantly.

Club Gitmo

(What it's really like behind the wire.)

 

[deep]

there are reasons why this G M failed

Chinese buy hummer, so we do get a happy ending.







GM to Sell Hummer to Chinese Firm - WSJ.com

 

[Irvine511]

Chinese buy hummer, so we do get a happy ending.[/url]

you're very good at this stuff.

 

[deep]

decades of practice.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I don't disagre with much of what you wrote

the union model worked well for many years, If an auto-worker retired in the 60s or 70s they would have probably gotten by pretty well.

In today's world, one worker vs. 10 retirees is not sustainable. I believe the bankruptcy is going to wreck havoc on today's retirees.


Civil servants still enjoy pretty good pensions and benefits, I expect them to implode next, in the next 5-10 years.


It is very unpleasant, that peoples lives are turned upside down.

re the car workers--

is that if I understand you correctly that they were retiring later >>
60's 70 vs more recently earlier 60's /late 50"s ?-- where some of the problem lies in amount of retiree's due to earlier retirement?

was that some what also faoult of negoations wherein the uber suits keep their stuff going ahappy along while they didn't see to making some better cars ei MoRE milage?

I've heard they make cars going ?? in a range of 35 - ?45 - even ?50 mph for buying in some parts of europe and south america but not sold here (made by) by our USA manufacturers ?

There's has to be a way of preserving unions! and increasing them. we have to fight a race to the bottom.

Also if we get a REAL govt run medical Plan OR of course single payer plan that's help the unions IMMENsely

fucking greedy insurance compamies fucking reagan/ uber greedy cruel Social Darwinist neo-cons etc

sloppy post sorry

wanted to reply but rushed this week time-wise/not feeling that good (be better later after some rest )

 

[INDY500]

Psssst, Don't Tell Anyone But the CIA's Enhanced Interrogation Techniques Worked [Andy McCarthy]


On a Saturday morning in late August, while country was away on summer vacation and those who closely watch politics were watching Ted Kennedy's funeral, the Washington Post quietly hung up the mainstream media's white flag on the CIA's harsh interrogation tactics. It turns out, they work — who knew?

As they say, you're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. The MSM has tried to have both for the last five years, arguing against experience and common sense that tactics like sleep-deprivation and waterboarding were not effective. Clearly, they worked, and to great effect.

Obviously, there is still a principled argument to be made that the nation should not engage in such practices. But the burden of making it in a principled way should be to say: "While this is an excruciating choice, it would be better for thousands of Americans to be killed than to allow the CIA to use non-lethal coercive tactics (that cause no lasting physical or mental damage) on a terrorist who refuses to tell us what he knows about ongoing mass-murder plots."

You mean Dick Cheney was right. How many here have argued that "torture never works"?

Washington Post story
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/28/AR2009082803874_pf.html

 

[HyperU2]

Waste of time. When it works they'll just argue it's a false confession.

 

[BVS]

I don't think anyone ever said that "torture NEVER works".

 

[INDY500]

I don't think anyone ever said that "torture NEVER works".

You haven't been paying attention.

 

[BVS]

Can you show me a quote?