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Old 04-24-2009, 10:57 PM   #106
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Successfully defending the United States from another 9-11 style attack is one of many accomplishments the Bush administration had in 8 years in office. Its interesting to note that Barrack Obama is following Bush Administration Policy in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 years ago, Barack Obama was demanding that ALL US combat brigades in Iraq be withdrawn by March 31, 2008. By March 31, 2010 with Obama in office for over a year by that point, most of those Brigades they he demanded be withdrawn by March 31, 2008 will still be there.
...Which makes sense. Bush didn't start withdrawing in that time period. Obama has to do it in steps, just like anyone else.

And the rest of your post is absurd propaganda.
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:23 PM   #107
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...Which makes sense. Bush didn't start withdrawing in that time period. Obama has to do it in steps, just like anyone else.

And the rest of your post is absurd propaganda.
You don't understand.

Obama demanded the withdrawal of all 15 US combat brigades in January 2007 by March 31, 2008. Thats less than 15 months.

Barack Obama became President on January 20, 2009. If he was still sticking with his original plan to withdraw all 15 brigades in 15 months, which was his plan in January 2007, he could attempt to do that now. January 20, 2009 to March 31, 2010 is the same amount of time as January 2007 to March 31, 2008.

But, Obama has abandon his plans from 2007 and signed on to the Bush plan of withdrawals only as conditions warrent it. This means that instead of all US combat brigades being withdrawn by March 31, 2010 , there will still be 12 US combat brigades there, or 80% of the total that was there in January of 2007.


From January 2007 to October 2007, Bush INCREASED the number of troops that were in Iraq by 33%. This plus key changes in tactics brought about the capture and killing of large numbers of insurgents and Al Quada members, helping to bring levels of violence down dramatically. The Surge forces started to leave at the begining of 2008 and all Surge forces were out by the fall of 2008. Another brigade was withdrawn beyond that before Bush left office. In Barack Obama's first 15 months in office, only 2 to 3 US combat brigades will be withdrawn from Iraq. Thats a huge difference from what Barack Obama was calling for in January 2007.
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Old 04-25-2009, 01:45 AM   #108
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The only question here is whether the tactics used to get intelligence were effective or not.


really? this is the only question?

we can torture ... but only if it works?!?!? well, hell, why stop at waterboarding? let's chop of fingers if it works. maybe if we threaten to cut out someone's tongue then they'll really talk.

if you believe what you've just written, then you're a fascist who belongs in the same camp as the Nazis, the Khamer Rouge, the Stalinists, and the Communist Chinese. we executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs after WW2.

you are no different from them.

we have direct quotes in the New York Times that the waterboarding happened *after* the supposed disruption of the L.A. Tower plot, and that the waterboarding was used to attempt to torture out a link between A.Q. and Saddam -- the link THAT WAS NEVER THERE.

clearly, the administration didn't feel as if their case for war was as airtight as you think it was.

so go take your blind worship and obedience to the GOP and pour it down your own throat as you're gagged with a washcloth -- i guarantee you'll start to spit up some of the nonsense you post since they sound like the rantings of a man who's been asked to defend the indefensible and is being tortured into coming up with a response.

it's always so ironic that those who love to wave the flag and put their hands over their hearts and sing the Star Spangled Banner whenever we lob a few missiles into Sudan have no idea what this country actually stands for. you people are all about power, you have no idea what democracy and freedom actually entails.
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Old 04-25-2009, 11:44 AM   #109
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Greg Mitchell: U.S. Soldier Killed Herself -- After Refusing to Take Part in Torture
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:24 PM   #110
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Wow. Sad story. I wonder how many other people opted out of the interrogations and how many filed a complaint.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:42 PM   #111
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really? this is the only question?

we can torture ... but only if it works?!?!? well, hell, why stop at waterboarding? let's chop of fingers if it works. maybe if we threaten to cut out someone's tongue then they'll really talk.
How would you justify letting a child, a thousand children, a million children, die, because you were unwilling to allow an interigation technique to be used on a terrorist that could retrieve intelligence to prevent such a disaster?

Lets just say for the moment that waterboarding does work and could save millions of people in certain situations. Are you really going to value preventing the extreme discomfort for a few minutes on a single individual over the entire lives of millions of people?

Also, lets not forget that the United States in liberating and saving France from Nazi Germany in the process killed tens of thousands of French Civilians, many of them with their bodies ripped into pieces. Its sad and terrible but it was necessary to defend democracy, the world, save lives, and defeat the Axis.


Think about what Abraham Lincoln said:

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"measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the Constitution through the preservation of the nation"

Abraham Lincoln
Do you consider Abraham Lincoln "evil" for saying that?


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if you believe what you've just written, then you're a fascist who belongs in the same camp as the Nazis, the Khamer Rouge, the Stalinists, and the Communist Chinese. we executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs after WW2.

you are no different from them.
So I guess you think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Powell are in those groups eh?

Quote:
we have direct quotes in the New York Times that the waterboarding happened *after* the supposed disruption of the L.A. Tower plot, and that the waterboarding was used to attempt to torture out a link between A.Q. and Saddam -- the link THAT WAS NEVER THERE.

clearly, the administration didn't feel as if their case for war was as airtight as you think it was.
After October 13, 2002 Bush had all the authorization he needed in the United States, to use military force against Saddam.

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so go take your blind worship and obedience to the GOP and pour it down your own throat as you're gagged with a washcloth -- i guarantee you'll start to spit up some of the nonsense you post since they sound like the rantings of a man who's been asked to defend the indefensible and is being tortured into coming up with a response.
Wow, what a mature, respectful and thoughtful post contributing much substance to the debate in this thread.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:50 PM   #112
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we executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs after WW2.
I read a book last year called 'Ship Of Ghosts' about the survivors of the USS Houston captured by the Japanese. Lots about the beatings, Dyesntaria, starving, forced labor and the Baatan death march but I don't remember anything about waterboarding. I doubt any Japanese soldier was tried soley for the crime of waterboarding.

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it's always so ironic that those who love to wave the flag and put their hands over their hearts and sing the Star Spangled Banner whenever we lob a few missiles into Sudan have no idea what this country actually stands for. you people are all about power, you have no idea what democracy and freedom actually entails.
It doesn't entail committing national suicide by allowing our enemies to use our freedoms and our democratic virtues of human rights, transparency in government and due process... to defeat us.

Why do I get the feeling the same crowd that tried to tie the hands of the president on Guantanamo Bay, every surveillance bill and harsh interrogation technique -- would have been the first and loudest screaming for his impeachment had we been attacked again the past 7 years?

I think some have no idea how rare liberty and freedom are nor the enormous effort it takes to defend them.
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:42 PM   #113
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I read a book last year called 'Ship Of Ghosts' about the survivors of the USS Houston captured by the Japanese. Lots about the beatings, Dyesntaria, starving, forced labor and the Baatan death march but I don't remember anything about waterboarding. I doubt any Japanese soldier was tried soley for the crime of waterboarding.
Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com

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After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
(emphasis mine)
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:48 PM   #114
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Why do you think Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell were advised that waterboarding was an option in obtaining information?
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:51 PM   #115
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How would you justify letting a child, a thousand children, a million children, die, because you were unwilling to allow an interigation technique to be used on a terrorist that could retrieve intelligence to prevent such a disaster?
This would be nice if torture were proven to provide reliable intelligence. It hasn't. In fact, if anything has been proven it's that torture provides extremely unreliable intelligence.

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Lets just say for the moment that waterboarding does work and could save millions of people in certain situations. Are you really going to value preventing the extreme discomfort for a few minutes on a single individual over the entire lives of millions of people?
Oh ok, so let's just argue for the moment that something that doesn't work actually does work? Brilliant! While we're at it, let's just say for the moment that gas is a limitless, nonpolluting energy source. Should we really be trying to find alternatives to a limitless, nonpolluting energy source?

Your whole argument at this point is based on a falsehood - that torture is an effective means of interrogation and has provided us with solid intelligence that has prevented attacks. It isn't and it hasn't.
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:52 PM   #116
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Why do you think Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell were advised that waterboarding was an option in obtaining information?
Because they were willing and able, and had a team of lawyers who were willing and able to degrade this country's moral standing by playing with words to make the illegal legal.
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Old 04-25-2009, 06:45 PM   #117
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This would be nice if torture were proven to provide reliable intelligence. It hasn't. In fact, if anything has been proven it's that torture provides extremely unreliable intelligence.
I tend to agree, although I can't say that is has been proven to of never provided reliable intelligence.

More intelligence was gathered in Iraq from befriending prisoners than other means. The question is though, are there certain types of individuals where only certain types of interigation techniques will work in obtaining life saving information?



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Oh ok, so let's just argue for the moment that something that doesn't work actually does work? Brilliant! While we're at it, let's just say for the moment that gas is a limitless, nonpolluting energy source. Should we really be trying to find alternatives to a limitless, nonpolluting energy source?

Your whole argument at this point is based on a falsehood - that torture is an effective means of interrogation and has provided us with solid intelligence that has prevented attacks. It isn't and it hasn't.
My argument is that the key question here is whether such interigation techniques work or don't work. Obviously if they don't work there would be no reason to use them. I don't know if such techniques work or don't work. You claim that they don't, but I'm not sure you can state that unless you've had access to all the information pertaining to the effectiveness of such techniques.
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Old 04-25-2009, 06:49 PM   #118
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Because they were willing and able, and had a team of lawyers who were willing and able to degrade this country's moral standing by playing with words to make the illegal legal.
Why would Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Powell decide to use ineffective means of interigation that were illegal? Whats the benefit for the country or even for them politically in doing that?
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Old 04-25-2009, 07:07 PM   #119
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911 happened after Bush got a daily briefing that said BinLaden determined to hit U S

Rice said before Congress we had no idea they wanted to use planes to hit buildings, after there had been written reports that said the very same thing.

Why would they want to do this?
because they are completely incompetent.
they thought if we were hit by another attack they would have more cover, they could say we even did harsh interrogations and imprisoned 800 people at GITMO, what more could we do?

they were not fit to governed before 911 and failed - big time. they could not even read the memos.


and after 911 their incompetence when in other directions. torture did not prevent any other attacks.

no attacks does follow torture
any more than the raping and killing of unarmed people in Iraq by U S soldiers prevented any future attacks.
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Old 04-25-2009, 07:41 PM   #120
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More intelligence was gathered in Iraq from befriending prisoners than other means. The question is though, are there certain types of individuals where only certain types of interigation techniques will work in obtaining life saving information?
If our only recourse, the only option we see to obtain needed information is to torture, then we (by we I mean our intelligence community) have failed our country. We're supposed to be the country of high moral standing, the country others look to to lead the way in bringing freedom and liberty to the world. When we're resorting to torture simply because we've run out of options, we're cheapening our legacy and destroying the very things we're supposed to be fighting to protect. The ticking time bomb is false. Not once has our intelligence community been in such a situation where torturing a prisoner provided information that shut down a "ticking time bomb" situation. Not once. It's a Hollywood pipe dream.

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Why would Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Powell decide to use ineffective means of interigation that were illegal? Whats the benefit for the country or even for them politically in doing that?
Because BushCo have shown themselves to be morally suspect in other ways? Because they wanted answers (whether true or not) to questions that would help paint the push for war in a better light?

Personally, I feel that one of the big factors they went to torture was this: they wanted to show the enemy that we're not as soft as they think we are. That we'll get just as dirty as you guys would. Not scared by all our high tech toys? Well guess what, one on one, we're not afraid to get down and dirty on you, either. Oh sure, we're not complete savages who'll behead you, but we sure as hell don't mind dabbling in some of the tried and true techniques of some of the more brutal regimes out there.

Whether they got credible information was probably a distant secondary benefit in their minds (you don't waterboard someone 83 times because you think he's just about to crack, you waterboard someone 83 times to teach him a lesson).
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