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Old 04-20-2009, 04:54 PM   #31
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I get that - what I'm suggesting is that it's no more valid for opponents of torture to argue the ineffectiveness of the particular techniques to support their position.

It reminds me of a few years ago when a number of people who had initially supported the invasion of Iraq felt duped when the WMD truth came out and knee-jerked justification for their position by denouncing Saddam as an evil dictator who needed to be taken down for the sake of Iraqis.
I don't really see how the one is related with the other. And isn't the purpose of a rhetorical question, in many cases, to show how nonsensical the other's argument is?
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:43 PM   #32
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my understanding -- and i could be wrong -- was that there was discussion as to whether or not it was acceptable to tell a detainee that they were aware of where his children lived and worked and they would tell said detainee that if he didn't produce whatever information then they would send people to his home and kidnap his child and then crush that child's testicles because his father was refusing to cooperate and give up said information.
Thanks, I was in the dark on that one.


Waterboarding someone over one hundred times seems excessive to me. Gen. Hayden did say that it was completely honorable to be against some of these techniques. Obama ran on it and he won the election after all. But Hayden also said that it was disingenuous to say that these methods were ineffective. He called it an "inconvenient truth" that we have been able to gather important intelligence from it. George Tenet also said that these methods did provide valuable information in his interview with Scott Pelley for 60 Minutes.

We will probably never agree where the line should be drawn with certain techniques, and that's ok. But you continue to maintain that they simply didn't work, while our intelligence directors say something else pretty consistently.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:13 PM   #33
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I'm definintely against torture, and glad that we've put a stop to it.

But I'm with Hayden on this. I wouldn't have disclosed it, at least not for some years to come. No reason our tactics and procedures (whether currently practiced or not) be known to potential targets someday. They can train/prepare against our means now. Better to let them wonder about our techniques.

BTW, I wouldn't exactly call Hayden a right winger. He's a career intelligence officer with no public party affliliation.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:07 AM   #34
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But you continue to maintain that they simply didn't work, while our intelligence directors say something else pretty consistently.

define "work."

torture doesn't work. we know this. can you point to specific information that was gathered that would have been unattainable by any other means? and was this information useful?

it's late, and i have gone well in-depth in the past on why torture doesn't work, the danger it poses to a free and democratic society, the fact that this was not Lyndie England but in fact top-down policy, that these were techniques used by the Gestapo, Stalin, and the Khamer Rouge, and the fact that once torture is legalized those who authored it's legalization and gave the orders to carry it out have a vested interest to lie about it's effectiveness.

what do the actual practitioners have to say?

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The escalation to especially brutal interrogation tactics against the prisoner, Abu Zubaydah, including confining him in boxes and slamming him against the wall, was ordered by officials at C.I.A. headquarters based on a highly inflated assessment of his importance, interviews and a review of newly released documents show.

Abu Zubaydah had provided much valuable information under less severe treatment, and the harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said.

Even for those who believed that brutal treatment could produce results, the official said, “seeing these depths of human misery and degradation has a traumatic effect.”

C.I.A. officers adopted these techniques only after the Justice Department had given its official approval on Aug. 1, 2002, in one of four formerly secret legal memos on interrogation that were released Thursday.
there has never been a ticking time bomb scenario. the CIA has blatantly lied about the effectiveness of waterboarding KSM and Zubaydah. i can even understand some overzealousness in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, but that's now what we have here. we have a program with rules and bureaucracy put into place years after 9-11, and after Abh Ghraib.

how far are you willing to go? as McCain has said, torture is not about them, it's about us.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:08 AM   #35
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But I'm with Hayden on this. I wouldn't have disclosed it, at least not for some years to come. No reason our tactics and procedures (whether currently practiced or not) be known to potential targets someday. They can train/prepare against our means now. Better to let them wonder about our techniques.


can you point out the new information contained in these memos that was heretofore unavailable?

because the only thing i hadn't heard about was the insect torture.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:31 AM   #36
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the new information that Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in a month after lots of information was acquired from him using legal interrogation method let's us know that the point of torture is, always, to torture.
83 times in a month and he's still alive. Gosh, sounds like waterboarding turns out to be rather more like teasing than torture.

Imagine the intel we may have gathered if we' ed really amped up the sadism and tickled 'em with feathers.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:42 AM   #37
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83 times in a month and he's still alive. Gosh, sounds like waterboarding turns out to be rather more like teasing than torture.

Imagine the intel we may have gathered if we' ed really amped up the sadism and tickled 'em with feathers.

wow.

well, i guess that's why they had doctors there. to make sure no one died. so they could torture that much more.

you're such a fucking Christian, INDY. the walking embodiment of it's contemporary, conservative definition.

thank Christ we kicked you out of office.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:46 AM   #38
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83 times in a month and he's still alive. Gosh, sounds like waterboarding turns out to be rather more like teasing than torture.
Well if he was dead it would be called murder. You don't quite grasp the concept of torture do you? The point is to keep them alive...

I always find it incredibly disturbing when Christians will fight tooth and nail to keep a definition but poke fun at torture.

It embarasses me and makes me sick to my stomach at the same time...
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:53 AM   #39
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well, look at it this way BVS.

waterboarding was so effective, and so critical to our intelligence gathering, that they had to do it 83 times in one month because the useful, actionable intelligence just kept pouring out of his mouth like water from a hose.

there's also this: Believe Me, It's Torture | vanityfair.com
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:03 AM   #40
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Well as suggested by our friend here in a previous torture thread, maybe if American Exceptionalism was renamed American Fabulousism you would understand...
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:19 AM   #41
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They may have not got any useful information
but I sure hope Bush snuck in a Baptism during one of those water boardings.

at least he could save a soul for Jebus.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:37 AM   #42
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Well if he was dead it would be called murder. You don't quite grasp the concept of torture do you? The point is to keep them alive...
So then torture is like a bogus political scandal. The point isn't really to rather information but rather... just keep it alive.

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I always find it incredibly disturbing when Christians will fight tooth and nail to keep a definition but poke fun at torture.
That's the thing with words. Change their definition often enough and they become meaningless. Today torture; tomorrow, marriage.
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It embarasses me and makes me sick to my stomach at the same time...
Spoken like a true progressive.

Oh wait, you're talking about me and not the United States Of America.
Well, sorry. Maybe it's just a bout of stomach flu.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:50 AM   #43
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wow.

well, i guess that's why they had doctors there. to make sure no one died. so they could torture that much more.

you're such a fucking Christian, INDY. the walking embodiment of it's contemporary, conservative definition.
THEY HAD DOCTORS THERE !! OMG, the more details that come out the more disgraceful this becomes.

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thank Christ we kicked you out of office.
Don't fear, we make rather good use out of our walkabouts in the desert.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:27 AM   #44
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Torture was extremely effective: The US's reputation and credibility went down the toilet in a matter of days. Moral authority of the US is no more.

But Obama is doing a good job to restore it again.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:15 AM   #45
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Article 5, UN Declaration of Human Rights.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.






im sure its a very simple way of looking at an incredibly complex issue, but lets think about it.
Hold these bastards accountable. Bush and co are no better than common war criminals.
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