Obama releases the "Torture Memos" - Page 20 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-22-2009, 06:04 PM   #286
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,667
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Have you ever taken a test where the answer is d. all of the above?

I'm sure you have, because sometimes when the answers don't contradict each other there can be more than one.

It's mind blowing, I know... but it's true.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 06:08 PM   #287
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 02:38 AM
I honestly fail to see how they are mutually exclusive.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 06:58 PM   #288
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I honestly fail to see how they are mutually exclusive.
Because if it NEVER works there is simply no reason, excuse or justification for its use beyond sadistic pleasure. Today, tomorrow or 5 years ago. However, if it works in specific cases when needed under exceptional circumstances then there truly is an argument. The importance of protecting human rights vs the duty to prevent the possible mass-murder of innocent civilians whom you've been entrusted to protect.

Choosing either good or evil is not the same as being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 07:05 PM   #289
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Where does it exclude your second quote, "it kills our soul as a country"? And no, under these specific circumstances, being to extract information within the shortest amount of time, it doesn't work. But it's very effective in breaking people, families and entire communities, making them have to deal with the consequences for years and generations to come. Torture is not the lesser of two evils. It is simply wrong.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 09:34 PM   #290
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,236
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
It "doesn't work" and "it kills our soul as a country" are two entirely different and mutually exclusive arguments
Please explain to me how they are mutually exclusive, because I fail to see it, and, in fact, find the two to be extremely compatible arguments.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2009, 10:01 PM   #291
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,236
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Because if it NEVER works there is simply no reason, excuse or justification for its use beyond sadistic pleasure. Today, tomorrow or 5 years ago.
First off, I don't believe anyone here has ever said that torture never works, so, way to paste false arguments onto us lefties. Secondly, someone can be under the mistaken impression that it works, or even believe that is an effective method, which may assuage any fears that they're being sadistic. But, if something is so ineffective, or requires 183 waterboards to get even the smallest amount of actionable intelligence out, then yes, sadism certainly does come into play.

Quote:
However, if it works in specific cases when needed under exceptional circumstances then there truly is an argument. The importance of protecting human rights vs the duty to prevent the possible mass-murder of innocent civilians whom you've been entrusted to protect.
So you're okay with torture if there's the slightest chance you may, at some point, get information that may save a life? Even though torture has proven to be an extremely unreliable and inefficient way of getting information? Even if you may need to waterboard someone 183 times and even then not get the information you need?

Wow, thanks for clearing that up.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2009, 10:59 PM   #292
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Because if it NEVER works there is simply no reason, excuse or justification for its use beyond sadistic pleasure. Today, tomorrow or 5 years ago. However, if it works in specific cases when needed under exceptional circumstances then there truly is an argument. The importance of protecting human rights vs the duty to prevent the possible mass-murder of innocent civilians whom you've been entrusted to protect.

Choosing either good or evil is not the same as being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.


please show us the situation where we had to torture someone to prevent the mass-murder of innocent civilians.

thanks.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #293
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 08:38 PM
also, what stories like this Denver possible plot should tell us is that good intelligence is gotten through effective police work, not through torture.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2009, 06:36 PM   #294
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,236
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
please show us the situation where we had to torture someone to prevent the mass-murder of innocent civilians.

thanks.
I just kind of assumed that "24" was a recreation of actual events. Are you trying to tell me it's not?
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2009, 08:54 AM   #295
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
I just kind of assumed that "24" was a recreation of actual events. Are you trying to tell me it's not?


it is not a reality show, unfortunately.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2009, 09:40 AM   #296
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
also, what stories like this Denver possible plot should tell us is that good intelligence is gotten through effective police work, not through torture.

Bet they were aided by provisions of the Patriot Act and other terror-fighting programs started under the Bush Administration (all of which were fought and labeled as "Constitution shredding" by those on the far-Left).

But, much like the worthiness of targeted harsh interrogation, that is only common sense speculation on my part.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2009, 10:50 AM   #297
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,475
Local Time: 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Bet they were aided by provisions of the Patriot Act and other terror-fighting programs started under the Bush Administration (all of which were fought and labeled as "Constitution shredding" by those on the far-Left).

But, much like the worthiness of targeted harsh interrogation, that is only common sense speculation on my part.


so we're in agreement on torture, then?

especially given how i've demonstrated that part of Colin Powell's humiliating presentation was because he was given bad information gained through torture?

you also understand that it's possible to look at some aspects of the Patriot Act and agree, and look at other aspects and realize that it could indeed be "constitution shredding" -- i.e., rendition, etc. we can look at things and make judgments and not dismiss things wholesale.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2009, 11:13 AM   #298
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Irvine, you know you can't take a balanced view on anything in this world and say, "Well, some aspects I agree with, but others are entirely contrary to my beliefs."
You are either against everything, or you are for everything. There is no in between.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 10:00 PM   #299
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Quote:
The torture memos show how illegal wars turn even the nicest people badThe deceit, the slaughter, the atrocity, the abuse of human rights. Today, Hannah Arendt's banality of evil is everywhere
The torture memos show how illegal wars turn even the nicest people bad | Simon Jenkins | Comment is free | The Guardian
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2011, 03:28 AM   #300
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Happy Halloween, Iraq-style!

__________________

__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com